XenForo revokes KiwiFarms' license

Oh!

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You don't have to support KiwiFarms to think that it's a slippery slope if licenses start getting revoked because the content of a site is offensive/racist/whatever. Personally I think they're a bunch of, well... to put it nicely... complete tards who try way too hard to be edgy. Doesn't mean I think they should have their license revoked just for that (assuming that it was just that that caused the revocation).
I believe the slippery slope fallacy has already been covered in this thread. It is an argument for doing just about nothing about just about everything which most people find reprehensible.
 
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TrixieTang

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And yet, being offensive isnt grounds as per the licensing agreement.

I suggest people go and read it...

I'll take that as a confirmation that XF won't revoke licenses for offensive content then.

I'm going to go ahead and guess that this clause was probably the one that led to KF's license revocation:

You undertake to ensure that the Software is not used by You or others to engage in or promote: illegal activity; any activity that would violate the rights of third parties; defamation, discrimination, harassment, hatred or harm of third parties.
 

vikvaliant

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Say tomorrow I rub a XF staff member the wrong way, what's to stop them from saying "Hey we don't agree with your content so we're revoking your license". Chances are minimal but with the way KW was handled the chance of this happening is there.
Cmon, that's not even close to what we have here. If that happened you'd receive a lot of support.

I'm curious to see if you can actually give an equivalent example, equal to harassing people online to the point of them committing suicide. Give it a try.
 
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sbjsbj

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Feb 9, 2015
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Refusing to sell the customer a good is one thing, but selling the customer a good and then taking it back is another. I think that's the difference here. The product was sold and in use for years, and now you try to take it back.

Imagine buying a brand new Toyota car (I have no issues with the dealer refusing to sell you the vehicle for WHATEVER reason they choose). However, let's say the dealer sells you that car, and a few years go by, and the dealer ends up driving by you and not liking the way you drive, at which point the dealer decides to "revoke" your car because of the way.

For a millionth time, stop using false analogies to support your argument.

If a dealer sells you a Toyota car, he gives you the ownership of it in exchange for money. He has no legal grounds to take it back, under no circumstances (unless the money you paid is fake money, so no valid trade was made).

In XF's case, they don't sell you the ownership. How hard is it to understand this? They own XenForo and its code. They don't sell you the code in exchange for money.
They let you to USE the code in exchange for money. They are lending the code. This lending, or from our view this renting, is held under a "license".

This license has bunch of conditions and legal protections for you and for XF. And if one side breaches these terms, the other side can call the license as invalid.
Just like a Toyota car dealership can cancel their agreement with you for a RENTED car.
 

mysiteguy

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Feb 20, 2007
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I don't believe they can void your warranty based on their judgement of your driving.

What you believe, and what the reality is, are in opposition. I ran an automotive performance tuning business for many years - they can, and will, void a warranty if they believe you've abused, modified, etc. the car.

There are people who have multiple accidents and their warranty doesn't get voided (not saying that accidents make you a bad driver - it could be the other persons fault). However, even if that was the case, where they would void the warranty based on your driving they cannot void the recalls (in XF case KiwiFarms can't even receive security updates)...

Insurers are responsible for making you whole in the case of an accident, and in excess of their coverage, the other driver if they are at fault.. If an automaker determines the accident caused damage to a part, they are under no legal obligation to repair it under warranty.
 

DarthVader

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For a millionth time, stop using false analogies to support your argument.

If a dealer sells you a Toyota car, he gives you the ownership of it in exchange for money. He has no legal grounds to take it back, under no circumstances (unless the money you paid is fake money, so no valid trade was made).

In XF's case, they don't sell you the ownership. How hard is it to understand this? They own XenForo and its code. They don't sell you the code in exchange for money.
They let you to USE the code in exchange for money. They are lending the code. This lending, or from our view this renting, is held under a "license".

This license has bunch of conditions and legal protections for you and for XF. And if one side breaches these terms, the other side can call the license as invalid.
Just like a Toyota car dealership can cancel their agreement with you for a RENTED car.
It would be nice if they stated that they are indeed renting the license to the customer. Maybe instead of saying "Buy XenForo" on their front page and elsewhere they should be saying "Lease or Rent XenForo". False. advertising? Clear definition between Buy and Rent.

What you believe, and what the reality is, are in opposition. I ran an automotive performance tuning business for many years - they can, and will, void a warranty if they believe you've abused, modified, etc. the car.
Modifying a car is completely different vs the way you drive the car... Let's not cross hairs here. I said a dealer cannot "revoke" your car based on the way you drive. Simple nothing complicated about what I said..
 

thenashy

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Feb 2, 2012
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This is a step too far to that team. The XF team have become more and more arrogant over the years.

Maybe I'm misreading, but the snark remarks to simple support sometimes, plus dodgy **** like this, we are done and won't be providing any further money to this company.

For those running big boards with add-ons, what is the recommendations n moving forward?
 

sbjsbj

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It would be nice if they stated that they are indeed renting the license to the customer. Maybe instead of saying "Buy XenForo" on their front page and elsewhere they should be saying "Lease or Rent XenForo". False. advertising? Clear definition between Buy and Rent.
How about you read the license agreement?

And it is no false advertising. That is the lingo used in IT world.

I guess you have never made any software purchase in your life. When you are "buying Windows 10" do you think you really acquire Microsoft the company? Or do you buy the Windows 10 code? No, they all lend you the code. You are buying legally the "right of use". Google "right of use" to understand the law.

Of course all companies have their own license systems, so they may differ. For example, in this thread, we have seen that WoltLab also rents you its code to you (just like any forum software company). However, they decided in their license agreements not to have a clause about revoking the license in case of racism, etc. Each company does it differently. One should read the license agreements instead of moaning.

Good for XF for having integrity. It is also a prime example to see which people have no integrity at all. Your tries to blackmail XF into submission by trying to bad mouth their public relations is not clever at all. You should be better than this. The rest of the community is not stupid not to notice your "but muh freedom" and "then I will take my millions of dollars elsewhere" threats. I'm having a good laugh about this.

PS: Just in case, I am just a regular license holder, have no ties to XF and I also am critical about other things they do, but this one is definitely NOT one of them.
 

DarthVader

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I guess you have never made any software purchase in your life. When you are "buying Windows 10" do you think you really acquire Microsoft the company? Or do you buy the Windows 10 code? No, they all lend you the code. You are buying legally the "right of use". Google "right of use" to understand the law.
I understand... however I would have an issue if Microsoft came to me and said "Hey we don't like you running this software, writing this code were going to revoke your license"....
 

sbjsbj

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I understand... however I would have an issue if Microsoft came to me and said "Hey we don't like you running this software, writing this code were going to revoke your license"....
Again, read the license agreements. It is your obligation to do so before you make a purchase. You are free to not buy it. But if you buy it, then you agree to the terms. Those terms don't change over night suddenly. They can't change the terms without your consent. So it means that forum had the knowledge before they purchased a license. They risked it. Their problem.
 

Pete

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Sep 9, 2013
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2,694
I would have an issue if Microsoft came to me and said "Hey we don't like you running this software, writing this code were going to revoke your license"....
You should read the MS Windows licence sometime.

Most people who use Windows 10 have an OEM licence, as such the wording is https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/OEM/Windows/10/Useterms_OEM_Windows_10_English.htm

Key statements:
By accepting this agreement or using the software, you agree to all of these terms, and consent to the transmission of certain information during activation and during your use of the software as per the privacy statement described in Section 3. If you do not accept and comply with these terms, you may not use the software or its features.

For example, this license does not give you any right to, and you may not:

(iv) work around any technical restrictions or limitations in the software;

...

(vi) reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the software, or attempt to do so (...)

(vii) when using Internet-based features you may not use those features in any way that could interfere with anyone else’s use of them, or to try to gain access to or use any service, data, account, or network, in an unauthorized manner.

By the wording given here, anyone who uses Windows to break the Windows licence activation systems or to hack another computer is technically in violation of the Windows licence. The only reason Microsoft don't 'revoke your licence' is because an individual user is sufficient insignificant to be worth Microsoft's time.

But legally they *can*. Just like XF can. The difference is scale - Microsoft sells millions of Windows licences every year; XF does not.
 
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