will I get into trouble for using my database(from forumotion) on the other site?

ooo

Neophyte
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
9
I am planning to move my forum database from forumotion to a new site but I am worried after reading this:
http://help.forumotion.com/t6668-forumotion-s-forum-databases

I am serious about my new site, as I am planning to actually pay money for the forumware(they are not cheap) and hosting, so I don't want to get into a situation where I might need to shut down my site in the future. so will I get into trouble, or get sued if I convert my database from forumotion to somewhere else? I surely do not want to lose all of the posts and members( as I ve put a lot of time and work into building that forum) but at the same time, I am worried that in a long run, it might be more worthy to start over again if they could sue me and I might end up losing my site in the future...
 

zappaDPJ

Administrator
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
7,205
If I recall correctly Forumotion has no facility to download databases so your first hurdle would be to find away around that and I'm not sure if it's possible.
 

whocky

Adherent
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
289
Don't count me on it as i have never used free forum hosting websites before but i do believe there is a way around it, I am sure someone will come a long and help maybe.
 

doubt

Tazmanian
Joined
Feb 25, 2013
Messages
4,864
Tough titties:
Sanctions:
The fact of not respecting these rights are by the law punished by up to two years of imprisonment and a fine of 150.000€
In the same way, groups can be declared responsible for these infringements penally.

In the event of repetition the sanctions are doubled.
 

MannyRUA

Fan
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
504
That isn't even written in proper English and doesn't bind anyone to anything. The fine amount is made up to scare you.

That said, it will likely be their copyright, but unless you have a huge site with lots of content they particularly want, I doubt they will make any fuss if you quietly migrate. They probably wont even know.
 

zappaDPJ

Administrator
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
7,205
yes, its possible, so now, will I get into trouble for using my database(from forumotion) on another site? I am worried about this:
http://help.forumotion.com/t6668-for...orum-databases
Reading though previous legal rulings made under article L. 341-1 I don't think you'll get a definitive answer on that, even from a lawyer.

In reality if you were found to be in breach of Forumotion's t&c's I suspect you would more likely receive a DMCA take down notice in the first instance but that's a guess on my part.

This might help shed a little more light on things: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...cQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=article L. 341-1&f=false
 

Jack_Rouse

Use The Force
Joined
Feb 21, 2013
Messages
1,396
The Law they are referring to is an a EU law concerning data protection.

However the law is not written in the way they say it is:
Art. L. 341-1 wrote:« Art. L. 341-1. - The producer of a database, heard like the person who takes the initiative and the risk of the corresponding investments, profits from a protection of the contents of the base when the constitution, the verification or the presentation of this one attests of a financial investment, material, human or substantial
L. 342-1 wrote:« Art. L. 342-1. - The producer of databases has the right to prohibit:

"1o The extraction, by permanent or temporary transfer of the totality or of a part qualitatively or quantitatively substantial of the contents of a database on another support, by any means and in any form that it is;

"2o the re-use, by the availability of the public of totality or of a part qualitatively or quantitatively substantial of the contents of the base, whatever is the form
These quote from the law have been badly translated, or very poorly spun.

What they actually state that "The databases which your forums use are the single property of forumotion.com according to the article" is not what the law refers to.

The part they are quoting from actually reads :
Any use or extraction of elements from the site not authorized by the producer is illegal and punishable by law as infringement of copyright.
All exploitation, even for private purposes, of all or a substantial part of the site presupposes the agreement of the publishing director in accordance with regulations.
Any infringement of author's copyright or database copyright is punishable by penal sanctions for infringement of copyright, without prejudice to any demands for damages by the holders of the copyright.

Whether or not the fine is plausible or not would depend on the justice if the case were to go to court, which I doubt.


In truth they are right, Forumotion hold the copyright to all the forums they host according to EU law, they are responsible for the integrity of the databases, this I am afraid is one of the pitfalls of free forum hosting.
 

cheat_master30

Moderator
Joined
Jan 16, 2010
Messages
3,853
You shouldn't. Indeed, if it's anything like Proboards, just ask your members first (if they say they allow their posts/user data to be moved to a non forumotion site, then any data protection stuff should be null and void).

At least, that's what I gathered when I asked someone from another free forum service about it here, like when I called them out over the terms of service.

So I'd assume if you ask everyone, you take what people on your site 'allow' you to use and don't end up annoying anyone, you likely won't get in any trouble whatsoever. After all, the original posters/contributors gave you permission to use the stuff...
 

ooo

Neophyte
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
9
That isn't even written in proper English and doesn't bind anyone to anything. The fine amount is made up to scare you.

That said, it will likely be their copyright, but unless you have a huge site with lots of content they particularly want, I doubt they will make any fuss if you quietly migrate. They probably wont even know.
I doubt they will even notice, but I wonder what if lets say there is someone (eg. ex members who got banned)who holds a grudge against me/my site, then, he/she could report my site to forumotion, so when that happens, will I get into trouble? or forumotion will probably not bother to do anything about it.

Reading though previous legal rulings made under article L. 341-1 I don't think you'll get a definitive answer on that, even from a lawyer.

In reality if you were found to be in breach of Forumotion's t&c's I suspect you would more likely receive a DMCA take down notice in the first instance but that's a guess on my part.

This might help shed a little more light on things: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...cQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=article L. 341-1&f=false
but forumotion is not a US company, do they even send out DMCA notices at all? If it is just DMCAs, then it is not a big problem, as I could just remove some of the posts when they ask for it, right? or they will ask me to remove the whole database, but then, the database will contain posts from the new members too...so what will the copyrighted materials that they are referring to be then?

The Law they are referring to is an a EU law concerning data protection.




Whether or not the fine is plausible or not would depend on the justice if the case were to go to court, which I doubt.


In truth they are right, Forumotion hold the copyright to all the forums they host according to EU law, they are responsible for the integrity of the databases, this I am afraid is one of the pitfalls of free forum hosting.
so it is more like a copyrighted infringement issue then(& it sounds really ridiculous that they own the copyright to someone elses creative work( posts)!)? if this is the case, I wonder if they will send me a warning notice and ask me to take down the "copyrighted materials"(members posts) first? and if I take down the posts from my old forum( but still keep the new ones), then will I be fine? do you know?

You shouldn't. Indeed, if it's anything like Proboards, just ask your members first (if they say they allow their posts/user data to be moved to a non forumotion site, then any data protection stuff should be null and void).

At least, that's what I gathered when I asked someone from another free forum service about it here, like when I called them out over the terms of service.

So I'd assume if you ask everyone, you take what people on your site 'allow' you to use and don't end up annoying anyone, you likely won't get in any trouble whatsoever. After all, the original posters/contributors gave you permission to use the stuff...
I shouldn't as I shouldn't make a copy of my forum database or I shouldn't worry about it?
but forumotion is different from proboards, because proboards claim that the members own the database, but forumotion claim that they own the database. so will asking the members for permission really solve this problem in forumotions case.
and how am I going to ask the members, you mean, I should send them emails one by one, individually and wait for their replies or I should make an announcement and send batch emails to all of the members all at once?( but not many members check their email that often, so, I might never get replies from some of them, when that happens, what to do?)
 

Jack_Rouse

Use The Force
Joined
Feb 21, 2013
Messages
1,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack_Rouse
The Law they are referring to is an a EU law concerning data protection.




Whether or not the fine is plausible or not would depend on the justice if the case were to go to court, which I doubt.


In truth they are right, Forumotion hold the copyright to all the forums they host according to EU law, they are responsible for the integrity of the databases, this I am afraid is one of the pitfalls of free forum hosting.






so it is more like a copyrighted infringement issue then(& it sounds really ridiculous that they own the copyright to someone elses creative work( posts)!)? if this is the case, I wonder if they will send me a warning notice and ask me to take down the "copyrighted materials"(members posts) first? and if I take down the posts from my old forum( but still keep the new ones), then will I be fine? do you know?
This is probably a case of ticking the T's & C's box without actually reading them, buried within those is probably a clause that states Forumotion retains the copyright intellectual or otherwise of all databases on it's servers.

There was a report recently that 99.9999999999999% of people never read T's & C's, one company on it's site buried a £1000 reward for the first person to claim it, it took over 5 yrs for someone to claim the prize !
 

techzechz

Aspirant
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
37
How many members do you have in your forumotion forum? If it is less than 500 you might want to just add links to your new site in your forumotion forum. I think the most probable reason why forumotion does not allow database transfers is they don't want admins to "upgrade" (when the admins are experienced enough). If they do allow database transfers, they may lose half their income. This means, if you start a forum with them, you are stuck with them forever. Next time, you should stay away from free forum hosting services if you want to create a serious community.
 

ooo

Neophyte
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
9
This is probably a case of ticking the T's & C's box without actually reading them, buried within those is probably a clause that states Forumotion retains the copyright intellectual or otherwise of all databases on it's servers.

There was a report recently that 99.9999999999999% of people never read T's & C's, one company on it's site buried a £1000 reward for the first person to claim it, it took over 5 yrs for someone to claim the prize !
Thats why I think they are trap, they probably know most people don't read the TOSs so they just put whatever they want into it.

I think the most probable reason why forumotion does not allow database transfers is they don't want admins to "upgrade" (when the admins are experienced enough). If they do allow database transfers, they may lose half their income. This means, if you start a forum with them, you are stuck with them forever. Next time, you should stay away from free forum hosting services if you want to create a serious community.
I know all of these things already, so you don't have to remind me of them again . As I said,(to me) free forums = traps, so of course I will not fall into the same trap twice and use a free forum again.




Forumotion hold the copyright to all the forums they host according to EU law, they are responsible for the integrity of the databases, this I am afraid is one of the pitfalls of free forum hosting.



and if it something to do with the EU laws, then I am not living in the EU, so can they really force me(and other people) to follow laws from other countries!?

I would like to add, I understand that I need to follow a companys TOS when I am using their service, but to think that, I still need to follow their TOS when I am not using their service..!? WT?
 
Last edited:

Jack_Rouse

Use The Force
Joined
Feb 21, 2013
Messages
1,396
Thats why I think they are trap, they probably know most people don't read the TOSs so they just put whatever they want into it.


I know all of these things already, so you don't have to remind me of them again . As I said,(to me) free forums = traps, so of course I will not fall into the same trap twice and use a free forum again.









and if it something to do with the EU laws, then I am not living in the EU, so can they really force me(and other people) to follow laws from other countries!?

I would like to add, I understand that I need to follow a companys TOS when I am using their service, but to think that, I still need to follow their TOS when I am not using their service..!? WT?
Firstly as you had to agree to the TOS, the law would assume you read them, if you didn't then you cannot use ignorance as a defence, no lawyer would uphold that, however there have been cases in the EU, where the TOS on some services have been challenged and found to unlawful in themselves.

Now we come to the second point, whether you live in the EU or not has no bearing on whether or not you have to abide by the law, yet again by agreeing to the TOS, you said you understood you were liable if you compromised the law.

Now here is what I would do, assuming you have a PM system on your forum.

Firstly I would contact all the members who are reliable posters, and ask them how they would feel about moving, explain the situation to them, and the benefits to them of moving, also explain that you wouldn't be able to take the old data with you, meaning all the old posts etc would be lost.

In order for the new forum to survive, you will need around 50 members to come across with you.

If you get that number of members then go ahead and construct your new forum, but involve the membership all the way.
 

ooo

Neophyte
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
9
Now here is what I would do, assuming you have a PM system on your forum.

Firstly I would contact all the members who are reliable posters, and ask them how they would feel about moving, explain the situation to them, and the benefits to them of moving, also explain that you wouldn't be able to take the old data with you, meaning all the old posts etc would be lost.

In order for the new forum to survive, you will need around 50 members to come across with you.

If you get that number of members then go ahead and construct your new forum, but involve the membership all the way.
So you are suggesting me to start from scratch, that means, I will lose 4000+ posts and 1000+ members... and all the time I ve spent on running the site( a few years)...

so in your opinions, it is better to not use the database( well, it is not really the database from forumotion, it is more like a copy of posts from the members) from forumotion?

and what do you mean by " involve the membership all the way"?

Thanks :gogo:
 

Jack_Rouse

Use The Force
Joined
Feb 21, 2013
Messages
1,396
So you are suggesting me to start from scratch, that means, I will lose 4000+ posts and 1000+ members... and all the time I ve spent on running the site( a few years)...

so in your opinions, it is better to not use the database( well, it is not really the database from forumotion, it is more like a copy of posts from the members) from forumotion?

and what do you mean by " involve the membership all the way"?

Thanks :gogo:
A lot depends on risk, what you have to do is weigh up the risk of using the database and forumotion not finding out, against the consequences of them finding out.

So lets suppose you use the database and they don't find out for a few months, well thats dandy, because all the posts from the new forum are yours anyway, they are not going to take you straight to court, the first thing is they will threaten you if you don't take the posts down, so you are in danger of losing your WHOLE database, unless you can prove that you have separated the new form the old. So realistically you lose.

In the same situation this is what I would do, I would transfer the database, but not close the forumotion account straight away, it would look suspicious.
After a few months on the new forum I would start to archive the old posts,making sure that the post count on the new forum increases so that the members don't realise what you are doing.
That way you can slowly back up the old database bit by bit, so that if forumotion do come calling you can plead ignorance and delete it for them.
 

ooo

Neophyte
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
9
I am a bit confused here, so you are saying, instead of using a script to create a database with a copy of the old posts and members, and use that database for the new forum, I should open up a new forum, and copy the posts from the old site one by one slowly to the new site?? then how about the members then? I am confused...
 

cheat_master30

Moderator
Joined
Jan 16, 2010
Messages
3,853
I say this; screw the 'law', do what you think is right and stand up for what you believe in. Think you should be able to use your database? Use it and tell them to get stuffed if they complain.

We need more people willing to tell corporations to go get lost and stop trying to bully them with pathetic 'contracts' like this.
 
Top