*Warning: Disturbing/NSFW* Conflicted, upsetting. Maybe it's someone else, but I don't think so.

BirdOPrey5

#Awesome
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Except that it was (according to the press reports) "taking" lewd images and filming. If those are not the charges then both press reports are highly defamatory and should be auctioned against. I'm still not getting all the talk of cartoons and hentai. Where is the evidence that a court found them guilty of just collecting and (presumably) looking at cartoons?
The press is right about as often as a broken clock. The law makes no distinction between lewd images and filming and cartoon images and animation. It's a messed up law. If cartoons weren't made illegal then we'd know who was actually looking at child porn and who wasn't... Or had they even made it a seperate (less serious) offense, we could make the distinction of who was who. But no- they worded it so there was no distinction between cartoon images and real photos/videos so the only people who will ever really know are those who saw the images- presumably the accused and the prosecutors, not even sure if the judge would see them.
 

BirdOPrey5

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Which is twice a day.

If they are wrong then they should be sued.
The news would probably say they reported what the law forbids, and they did, because the law is so stupid. There is no open and shut case here, no one is going to sue- hell half the people here already think he's a child molestor, he wouldn't stand a chance in court. In the real world you can't sue everyone who wrongs you.
 

doubt

Tazmanian
Joined
Feb 25, 2013
Messages
4,864
If they are wrong then they should be sued.
It's possible to do: Rebel Wilson awarded $4.5m in damages over defamatory magazine articles

But have to have deep pockets for it:
Hollywood celebrity Rebel Wilson has been ordered to repay her multimillion-dollar payout to the magazine publisher that defamed her.

Wilson’s barristers, Matthew Collins QC and Renee Enbom, appeared before the High Court in Canberra on Friday seeking special leave to appeal after she was forced to repay almost 90 per cent of her record $4.7 million payout to the Woman’s Day publisher that defamed her.

But the court refused the application, with costs. Wilson will retain $600,000 of the original payout after repaying about $4.1 million but is understood to be out of pocket at least $2 million in legal expenses on top of that.
 

voodoochill

Aspirant
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
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If you have a good case, ie you were only guilty of cartoons but they reported that you took photos and videos of real children, and that was not true, then they would probably settle out of course and retract/aplogise. But only if you can prove your case.
 

we_are_borg

Administrator
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Jan 25, 2011
Messages
5,397
If you have a good case, ie you were only guilty of cartoons but they reported that you took photos and videos of real children, and that was not true, then they would probably settle out of course and retract/aplogise. But only if you can prove your case.
Again you are going against news media outlets so the story will break with more negative news against you as person. Cartoons or not in the UK there is no distinction between real images or cartoon or drawings, so the news can say child porn and you will lose because the law is clear between the two.
 

voodoochill

Aspirant
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Jul 11, 2008
Messages
26
so the news can say child porn and you will lose because the law is clear between the two.
I'm not disputing that at all, I'm just talking about this car where the news explicitly mentions creating or allowing the creation of images and video. It doesn't just say "child porn" which I agree would cover cartoons and so not be actionable if that is all it was.

All I'm saying is that if it was me and I was looking at what I considered art, that until last year was actually legal, and that is what I pleaded guilty to under a new law, then I would be outraged and go after anyone saying it was something that people in general would consider a lot more sinister and evil.

In that case I think it's reasonable to take action if what you are claiming is for a retraction, clarification and apology. I'm convinced they would settle, especially if you aren't going after financial compensation and just clearing your name - they have nothing to lose, they've already made their revenue from the article and I'm sure would prefer that kind go settlemeant than going to court.

But it is speculation, I may be wrong - it has been known.
 

BirdOPrey5

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All I'm saying is that if it was me and I was looking at what I considered art, that until last year was actually legal, and that is what I pleaded guilty to under a new law, then I would be outraged and go after anyone saying it was something that people in general would consider a lot more sinister and evil.
You can say it but frankly I don't believe you. I hope you are never in a circumstance where you or a loved on is accused of a real crime, and maybe you will be that 1 in a thousand person who would sue the newspapers, but in the real world normal people (those not independently wealthy) don't sue newspapers- especially when they have pled guilty to a crime most people don't ever forgive or forget. You just want to move on with your life and leave it all in the past. You want less attention, not more by suing the news.
 

BirdOPrey5

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I'm being honest. Many people (including myself) will sometimes say things they think they would do in a given situation, but having never been in the actual situation can't be certain what they would actually do. I believe you think you would sue, but I honestly don't believe you would. If you've already pled guilty to a crime, any crime, there isn't much to save by arguing over details. You're guilty.
 

Slavik

Participant
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Messages
64
If you have a good case, ie you were only guilty of cartoons but they reported that you took photos and videos of real children, and that was not true, then they would probably settle out of course and retract/aplogise. But only if you can prove your case.
All the evidence will be under the control of the CPS/Police. Access as such for a civil case will be near on, if not impossible to prove.
 

Anton Chigurh

Ultimate Badass
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I'm being honest.
It's kind of humorous that in a thread full of repeated unkindness, dishonesty, self-righteous hyperbole, outright lies, slanderous accusations and innuendo, that something so rare and precious as upright honesty would offend anyone.
 

Kaelon

Enthusiast
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Aug 14, 2008
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220
A couple thoughts here:
  1. This is both incredibly disheartening and extremely revolting news.

  2. For those of you trying to figure out how to take the news and listening to the convicted defendant's explanation, I subscribe generally to Occum's Razor -- that the simplest explanation tends to be the truest here. So, in light of that, I just ask myself: "Which is more likely? That child pornography, including videos and images depicting real human children involved in sex acts, was found on their computers, like the news reports and case filings state? Or, that as the defendant explains a technical legality under Scottish Law criminalized the hentai porn that they had downloaded previously and resulted in both the confiscation of their computers and the ongoing digital monitoring of their activities for the next three years, and that somehow the news and case filings erroneously included a broader definition rather than this relatively limited 2010 law's specific issue?"
To me, this is pretty cut-and-dry. While I am appreciative of how the legal systems can sometimes overly complicate very simple crimes, and I also recognize that pedophilia is sometimes overly broadened to include non-pedophile behaviors (such as a 19 year old man having an intimate relationship with his 17 year old girlfriend), I believe that the journalism and case filings here are pretty specific and the DragonBytes studio guys are essentially pedophiles.

I think they should do the entire Internet a favor and completely close up shop and disappear from the scene for the next few years, and if/when they do return, probably do so under a completely new identity. There's no coming back from sexual predation the way that this has come out, and I will never knowingly do business with a pedophile.
 

sanction9

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Feb 19, 2015
Messages
219
I'm being honest. Many people (including myself) will sometimes say things they think they would do in a given situation, but having never been in the actual situation can't be certain what they would actually do. I believe you think you would sue, but I honestly don't believe you would. If you've already pled guilty to a crime, any crime, there isn't much to save by arguing over details. You're guilty.
Yeah, what people say they'd do and what they actually do in situations like this are often very different. You hear a lot of people say things like, "I would never plead guilty if I weren't," but I imagine it's a whole lot harder to stand by your principles when you're looking at the very real possibility of spending a third or more of your life behind bars and trying to decide if that's better or worse than having a lot of people thinking you're an a-hole. I'm not sure how many people realize just how broad most laws are written and how easily offense after offense can be piled on to get a person to plead guilty to something. I don't know about Scotland or the UK, but in the US, according to the last stats I read, 94+ percent of felony convictions are the result of plea bargains, many by people who claim to be innocent. Yes, obviously it's debatable how many of them are actually innocent, but when you're talking about a staggering number of people convicted by basically threatening them with every charge law enforcement & prosecutors can dream up, it's not hard to imagine more than a few people being coerced by fear into pleading to whatever, even if they're innocent, if it might allow them some kind of life that's not in a cage - if they're not killed by their fellow inmates while in that cage. No doubt most of the people here talking big about going to prison for their principles would be crying like little babies about as soon as the cell door closed on them.
 

mysiteguy

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Feb 20, 2007
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I think they should do the entire Internet a favor and completely close up shop and disappear from the scene for the next few years, and if/when they do return, probably do so under a completely new identity. There's no coming back from sexual predation the way that this has come out, and I will never knowingly do business with a pedophile.
I think that actually does disfavor. The best outcome is to have the fewest number of innocent people negatively impacted by this as possible. Dragonbyte has been one of the top addon providers, with great product support. The reality is if Dragonbyte closes shop it leaves many past purchasers in a very difficult position if they rely on the addon and a security exploit or another serious problem is found. There are those like myself who have the technical skillset to resolve such things if I get in a bind, so I won't do further business with them, but the majority of Dragonbyte customers can't support the product themselves.

Their closing down would leave people with few or no choices. Staying open, each customer can make the decision about what is the best course of action for them moving forward.

Yesterday I talked with another client of mine who uses Dragonbyte products, and their response puts it in perspective. They essentially said that while they are disgusted, they also have a plugin that is necessary for their business and they have over a dozen people employed. People's families depend on some of the larger forums out there.
 

Arty

Developer
Joined
Sep 16, 2013
Messages
34
I see many people are talking about dropping Dragonbyte products and I'm worried about it.

Thing about news articles is they always show only one side of story and often replacing words to imply things that didn't actually happen. Good reporting is very rare, today media chase for ratings by exaggerating things and using clickbait titles. Its not trustworthy. What's worse than bad news reporting is mob mentality of social media and knee jerk reaction based on emotions triggered by one sided reporting.

Fact is all details are unknown. Court documents are not available to public. That means media has nothing to go on, so articles are based on feelings rather than facts made to trigger emotions and send angry mob of brainless morons after people, which is worst kind of bad reporting.

Actions should have consequences, but that's for justice system to decide, not to social media mob. Only justice system has access to all facts.

My opinion is what Philip has posted was the truth because otherwise they'd get serious prison time. Hentai stuff is weird, but not even in same category as what news articles are accusing them. However it has nothing to do with XenForo. It doesn't affect quality of their products. I see no reason to drop Dragonbyte products.

The only time I encouraged my customers to drop a developer was when certain Vietnamese company has been injecting callbacks in code and was banned for that from XenForo official website. I encouraged to drop their products because I saw actual code, so it was based on facts, not rumours.
 

voodoochill

Aspirant
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
26
This is honestly a nightmare, as Dragonbyte are some of the best coders we have. Hopefully this is a grave misunderstanding.
I find it the nightmare is the abuse, sexualisation and cruelty involved in the child porn industry. That is why it's a nightmare.
 

southernlady

Devotee
Joined
May 8, 2005
Messages
2,421
My opinion is what Philip has posted was the truth because otherwise they'd get serious prison time. Hentai stuff is weird, but not even in same category as what news articles are accusing them. However it has nothing to do with XenForo. It doesn't affect quality of their products. I see no reason to drop Dragonbyte products.
As consumers, we have the right to decide who we support. I decided to not deal with them as far as purchasing add ons. But my decision is mine and mine alone. I did pass along this thread to a another XF owner who isn't a member here and if she decides to purchase an add on from them, I will add it for her but what she does is her business, not mine.
 

Featherwing

Neophyte
Joined
Nov 1, 2016
Messages
6
I only discovered this through the forum newsletter where the title caught my eye. This has been horrific to read.

I am not going to debate the shade of blue that the sky has with anyone here, nor am I going to debate whether either of them are guilty of the offences they've been convicted of. I trust the Courts, otherwise I'm sure Belazor would have mentioned he was appealing his conviction.

After being a customer of DBtech since 2014, I will not be doing any further business with them at any level.
 
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