vBulletin 5 being avoided by forum admins - is vBulletin 5 Dead ?

Digital Doctor

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vBulletin5.being.avoided.like.Ebola.jpg
vBulletin 5 adoption remains extremely low.
The idea that vB3 and vB4 users are avoiding vB5 ... to this degree ... over the last 16 months ... makes vB5 a virtually dead product.
 

BirdOPrey5

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View attachment 12849
vBulletin 5 adoption remains extremely low.
The idea that vB3 and vB4 users are avoiding vB5 ... to this degree ... over the last 16 months ... makes vB5 a virtually dead product.
You completely missed on the second image there is vBulletin 5.1.x which has 1.1% of the VB market- along with those still running the OLD 5.0.x shows the vb market share of 5.x overall has tripled in year and a quarter since the graphs were made.

upload_2014-10-15_22-54-16.png
 

Digital Doctor

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The fact that vb5 has a .1x release and adoption is that low makes things worse not better.

Admins have spoken - vb5 is D.O.A !
 

Shawn Gossman

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I still have several vBulletin licenses. Every time I use one of them, after installing the forum and setting up everything, I look at it and see the void vBulletin has created in the forum software community and I kill my forum project. Now I just let the licenses collect dust. I don't even think they are worth selling, let alone worth using.
 

s.molinari

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What's more interesting. There is a bigger shift to vB4 than vB5. vB4 adoption went from 50.9% to 54.8%. I wouldn't say vBulletin is dead yet. I would say it is like a fish out of water, flapping its last flaps, gasping for water. If you've ever fished, it is a sad sight to see.

If you gave the statistics the benefit of the doubt, and actually rounded the percentage up some, because not everyone successfully get's their board upgraded, and said 6% of users purchased the upgrade. Then we take the total number IB boasts of vB sites, 100k (which is also being very generous in this calculation), that means there has been a sale of about 6k upgrades. At $209 a pop, that is around $125k revenue for the year for upgrades. (It's actually more than a year showing above, but we'll let that go too.) We made that much on upgrades in the Germany business alone during the good ol` vB3 days. Anyway, taking into account the upgrades were a 3rd of the income back then, that would mean IB is making about 400k (rounding up again) on its vB business on total revenues.

That is part of the sign, the vB fish is not going to make it back into the water soon enough. The other is the missing buzz needed to get people interested. It isn't there. 400k simply isn't enough to run that business and move it forward properly. I would even venture to say, if vB were its own business and without a parent company subsidizing it, it would be out of business. But then again, it might actually work better that way. LOL!:D :po_O:cautious::ROFLMAO:

Scott
 
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Shawn Gossman

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I don't see it as a good sign if you have to downgrade in order to use a forum software though. Regular vBulletin forum runners might go about doing that with little though but how would a new potential customer see something like that?
 

kim109

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Put it this way....it's not "living".

A similar trend exists in pretty much every botched piece of software, and the end result is nearly always the same: death.

I've been trying to think of an example of something that's gone like this, and the only example I could think off (which isn't totally relevant to be honest) is Blackberry.

They nosedived when the competition made something better, and despite repeated "relaunches", ultimately failed to create something people wanted. All they keep doing is rehashing the same crap software and crap handsets that people dont want, and trying to trick people into thinking it's the best thing ever.

This year alone they layed off 4,500 employees, and reportedly lost half a billion dollars in the space of three months. What did they do in response to that? Nothing. They announced the Q10/Q20 phone. Which looks like yet another blackberry, with yet another facelift, which will be yet another failure.

I appreciate that we cant fully compare vB to this, but the management style isn't far off:

Situation: Need to make money, but cant charge people for software (device) that they already own.
Solution: Release a new version, superior to the old version and people will want to pay for it.
Constraints: Needs to be done ASAP. Must be done quick, and on a budget.
Issues: Throw a handful of fresh faces into the rings to do this, and they will come up with something new, and great.
Actual Outcome: 12 months into development, those 'fresh faces' are in way over their heards, and have created flaws in the product.
Management Response: Release it to the public, and get the marketing team to hype it up.
When it fails to make money: Go quiet, keep a skeleton team fixing issues until it makes enough money back.

From an outsiders point of view -that's the vB management mentality. The mistake they made was:

A) Using an inexperienced development team
B) Releasing way too early
C) Making poor planning choices

The vB5 plan should have been to either:

A) Recode from scratch using modern techniques (not the ancient techniques the ended up using)
B) Refactor vB4, introducing an improved framework architecture to improve modability. Hire an external, experienced design agency to bring in a complete new user interface, work with reputable addon developers to either bring their addons into the core product, or provide them with support and access to bring addons to market at the same time as the stable public release.

The issue is time. Both these options do take time, there's no doubt about that. But here's where I take issue - there was nothing wrong with vB4 that couldn't have been fixed by a skeleton team. Have two people working full time on vB4, doing incremental bug fixes and patches, and maybe the occasional feature.

Then have a primary team of approximately 6 developers working on vB5.

Why wasn't this done? We can only presume piss poor planning and project management, however any project manager of vBulletin was likely stuck between a rock and a hard place anyway, as from the sounds of things (based obviously on pure speculation and some comments in legal documents) the management of Internet Brands (and mostly Brisco) were only concerned about their stockholders seeing profits rolling in.

Personally as a stock holder I'd much rather have heard "Ok heres the deal, we're going to make a loss this year on vBulletin, and it's intentional. We need to bring vB5 to market, so have spent X amount bringing in an experienced development team, and working with external design agencies. But the end result will be significant profits from a quality product within two years".

Instead we hear "We released vB5, just a short X months after starting on it, it's amazing" - which is a complete fabricated lie.

There are good ways to manage a company and bad ways. Guess which Internet Brands chose to do.
 

BirdOPrey5

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Blackberry's only current customers are the ones who love real keyboards and won't give them up- if Blackberry abandoned their keyboard designs they would lose all their customers instead of just most.

The truth is the real keyboards of blackberry ARE the superior design. If people bought phones for WORK and EFFICIENCY rather than a fashion accessory Blackberry would still be on top,
 

kim109

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Blackberry's only current customers are the ones who love real keyboards and won't give them up- if Blackberry abandoned their keyboard designs they would lose all their customers instead of just most.

The truth is the real keyboards of blackberry ARE the superior design. If people bought phones for WORK and EFFICIENCY rather than a fashion accessory Blackberry would still be on top,
Oh I agree with that - I'm not debating that they have their purpose, hence why I said the comparison wasn't great.

The issue for Blackberry is they are selling to an ever shrinking market. The issue for vBulletin is they are creating a poor product in a market crowded with noticeably better products.

Blackberry's "fix" would be to ditch the current constant rehashing of the same device and software and focus on devices people in a larger market want. Even if that meant going down the route of using Android as their OS.

vBulletin's "fix" is to stop trying to cut corners with inexperienced developers and stupidly short development timeframes, and bring in a well paid team of senior developers, and an experienced project manager, and I'm not talking about a project manager, who's worked on some multi-million pound Windows programming company, or some sort of corporate CRM. I'm talking someone who's only worked with smaller teams on successful projects. I.e someone who's worked on something like a successful mobile app startup.
 

Panupat

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What works can you actually do on a phone that small? These days my cell phones are basically Game Boy replacement... can't stand doing anything else on such small screen.
 

Goodfella

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What works can you actually do on a phone that small? These days my cell phones are basically Game Boy replacement... can't stand doing anything else on such small screen.
If youre reffering to the BlackBerry, lots of work can be done on phones that small. Afterall it was the enteprise phone for years, many people did tons of work on it..
 

s.molinari

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Blackberry's only current customers are the ones who love real keyboards and won't give them up- if Blackberry abandoned their keyboard designs they would lose all their customers instead of just most.

The truth is the real keyboards of blackberry ARE the superior design. If people bought phones for WORK and EFFICIENCY rather than a fashion accessory Blackberry would still be on top,
I use both and I am just as proficient with both keyboards and actually like using my iPhone better, not because of the keyboard, but because of the whole experience. It is MILES better than BB's.

I've also seen a girl, who was sitting next to me on a flight to Singapore typing on her Samsung Phablet and I know for a fact, no one could ever type as fast on a BB like she was. I didn't think thumbs could move that fast.

We also have people in our company, who are able to use iPhones and the couple I've asked said, they'd never want a BB again. The people who use a BB and haven't used a touch screen smartphone just don't know what is actually better. Yes, a touch screen keyboard needs getting used to. But a touch screen smart phone is most definitely, overall, a much better tool.

Scott
 
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Vilandra

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For customers who were burned when IB took over and lost their "lifetime" licenses, and then were burned again by vB5 - who's going to give vB a chance again? No one. The only reason as many did is because all the years of goodwill from the pre-IB days. And any new customer who does 10 minutes worth of research will know to steer clear of vB. It's dying if not dead.
 

Vilandra

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Paying $40 is a lot different from paying $249 - and that was what was agreed to when I purchased my 5 licenses. It wasn't "$40 for access to upgrades...until we feel like charging you all over again."
 

BirdOPrey5

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Paying $40 is a lot different from paying $249 - and that was what was agreed to when I purchased my 5 licenses. It wasn't "$40 for access to upgrades...until we feel like charging you all over again."
$40 a year... $209 for latest version, not $249 if you already have a licence... and have you looked at the price of eggs, milk, or gas since 2002? They've all went up.. way up. No reason to think it would have been $40 forever.
 

Digital Doctor

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For good software, $40/year is too cheap.
But $40/year for a company that produces software that barely functions is alot.
 

Vilandra

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$40 a year... $209 for latest version, not $249 if you already have a licence... and have you looked at the price of eggs, milk, or gas since 2002? They've all went up.. way up. No reason to think it would have been $40 forever.
Let's not pretend that was about inflation.

Fact of the matter is, IB screwed over a bunch of people who had been loyal customers, which you can only do if you then proceed to put out a decent product. So now without a major change in the way IB operates, vB is on the way out.

For good software, $40/year is too cheap.
But $40/year for a company that produces software that barely functions is alot.
Changing your pricing models for new customers is okay, and expected. But you should honor existing agreements - whether you just bought the company or were there all along. And you certainly shouldn't treat customers like garbage and tell them they have no reason to be upset the way we were.
 

BirdOPrey5

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Hardly treated like garbage... People were so unhappy they couldn't get a VB4 licence for their $40 but then it turned out they didn't want one anyway. AND people did get access to early versions of 4.x with their VB3 renewals anyway.

VB3 was maintained for far longer than anyone thought it would be.

VB 3.x license holders got their money's worth, you can't claim otherwise.
 

is_it_me

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You completely missed on the second image there is vBulletin 5.1.x which has 1.1% of the VB market- along with those still running the OLD 5.0.x shows the vb market share of 5.x overall has tripled in year and a quarter since the graphs were made.

View attachment 12850
Now that is a nice piece of spin. :cool:

Trouble is, if you basically have bugger all and you triple that, you still basically have bugger all.

Joe, have you ever considered moving in politics? hmm.gif
 
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