The dilemma of politics

[Nev_Dull]

Science is flexible and theories and conclusions do change over time - but based on the best current evidence, not faith. My "faith" can lead me to believe that a fifty foot purple man in space telepathically directs me to do his bidding, and how could you prove me wrong, since there's arguably no "proof" for or against it?

That is one of the most difficult aspects of political or religious discussions for people to grasp. It isn't always about proving you're right and the other guy is wrong, or convincing them to believe what you believe. Very often, it is just a discussion with point and counterpoint, where participants line up on different sides of the issue. There is no winner or loser, nothing is decided, but everyone can come out of it with a little more understanding of the other's position and their reasoning. That's a win-win, when it goes right.

 

[MarkFL]

I'm always interested in what people believe, but more importantly why they believe what they do. If someone can demonstrate to me that I believe something for bad reasons, then I am happy to change my beliefs.

 

[mysiteguy]

There are some things which are fundamentally proveable, no matter what someone's belief is to the contrary. For instance, the earth is not flat and does not have 4 corners. The sky is not a firmament separating the earth from water above it, proven every time we send a satellite into orbit. No matter anyone's belief to the contrary based on a literal interpretation of any sacred religious book, they factually and provably wrong.

 

[R0binHood]

For instance, the earth is not flat

Whaaaaaaaat??

 

[User37935]

Thanks folks, some interesting responses and some ideas for me going forward. Good to know I'm not the only one who has had to sit down and think long and hard about how to deal with this divisive issue. Thanks again for the responses.

 

[southernlady]

There are some things which are fundamentally proveable, no matter what someone's belief is to the contrary. For instance, the earth is not flat

But then again, that's only been able to be proven since humans traversed the globe and even then it took a long time to make believers of people.

One man's science is another man's magic.

 

[Nev_Dull]

For instance, the earth is not flat and does not have 4 corners. The sky is not a firmament separating the earth from water above it, proven every time we send a satellite into orbit.

Clearly, you are still "asleep". Only the awakened know the truth:

• NASA is a lie, perpetrated by its Masonic leaders.
• All images of "space" are fake and videos are CGI.
• Satellites are attached to weather balloons resting against the inside of the dome.
• There is no physical proof of the curvature.

Oh, and water always finds its level.

 

[MarkFL]

If during a discussion with another, I discover that they cannot or will not consider that they might be wrong about the issue we are discussing, I no longer engage them about that issue, because this is a strong indicator that their mind is closed, and no amount of reasoning is going to budge them from their position.

I am a skeptic and reserve belief for those things having a compelling reason or evidence to justify my belief. And, I am always open to evidence about which I may be unaware or which has come to light. I never consider any belief unassailable.

 

[mysiteguy]

But then again, that's only been able to be proven since humans traversed the globe and even then it took a long time to make believers of people.

One man's science is another man's magic.

It was known before that, through experiments/demonstrations done over the centuries, such as Magellan. Many knew it was at least a partial sphere from observing ships disappearing over the horizon. Some groups in various civilizations even worked out how large earth's sphere is with a pretty good degree of accuracy. Columbus would have tried his journey to India if he didn't firmly believe the earth was a sphere.

 

[southernlady]

It was known before that, through experiments/demonstrations done over the centuries, such as Magellan.

Known but not actually proven until 1519 when Magellan circled the globe. And even then, that news didn't reach most peasants.

Many knew it was at least a partial sphere from observing ships disappearing over the horizon.

Remember, many thought people fell off the edge of the world when the ship disappeared.

We take it for granted now but the educated in the Middle Ages to the Industrial Revolution was a definite minority, I've seen 5% quoted in a google search in the 1300's. Education was typically reserved for the wealthy.

 

[MarkFL]

Today, a basic grasp of classical physics and differential equations is all that's needed to demonstrate why celestial bodies tend to be spherical.

 

[southernlady]

Today, a basic grasp of classical physics and differential equations is all that's needed to demonstrate why celestial bodies tend to be spherical.

Which I have neither BUT I have seen enough to believe it.

 

[MarkFL]

Which I have neither BUT I have seen enough to believe it.

Yes, the tensor algebra underlying Einstein's General relativity is something I never learned, yet the evidence demonstrates that it is a very accurate description of nature. I also trust that the scientific community is not in cahoots to perpetrate any conspiracies.

A powerful aspect of science is that it evolves over time as our knowledge increases. All science is subjected to the process of peer review, and over time good hypotheses that match with observation and provide explanatory power arise to become theories, while those that fail are eventually discarded. As new information becomes available, old theories are replaced by newer theories that not only explain everything previously known, but also explain the new information. This is progress, although the detractors of science will point to this evolution as a fault, as if to say science is always changing its "facts."

 

[Nev_Dull]

Known but not actually proven until 1519 when Magellan circled the globe. And even then, that news didn't reach most peasants.

The spherical nature of the earth was proven around 240BC by Eratosthenes, a Greek mathematician using sticks in the ground in two different cities. By measuring the difference in the angles of the shadows and using basic Pythagorean geometry, he calculated the circumference of the planet with surprising accuracy.

Had education standards been maintained across Europe over the years, it would not have been necessary to rediscover that fact. And maybe now we'd have flying cars and personal robots.

 

[makaiguy]

I have a zero tolerance for political expression in any form on my site - no discussion, no links, no memes, no snide remarks, no avatars or signatures. All are deleted and repeat offenders have been banned. This was the rule 12 years ago and stands today. I can count on one hand the number of problems related to it in the last 11 years.

Political haranguing practically tore the forum I administer apart years ago. The hate and bickering spilled over from the general discussion forum into other areas of the board as well. Google searches on issues du jour brought more and more new users with no interest in our forum's focus who just came to grind political axes. Long time and valued users started staying away because the politics were so divisive. We lost several excellent moderators who got fed up with the abuse directed at them from miscreants who could not follow the rules. Finally in 2003 we banned all such discussions. Here's an excerpt from our posting rules:

Avoid posting about politics, religion, or contentious social issues
Unless directly related to [our site's focus area], such discussions are prohibited in these forums, including [our general discussion forum]. We've been down that road before, it was ugly, and we are not going there again.

True, we lost a few users when this went into effect, but they have not been missed. Our forum returned to be a pleasant place to hang out almost overnight and we frequently hear from our loyal user base how much they appreciate a welcoming internet home where they are not subjected to all the shortsighted bickering so common elsewhere.

 

[JQP]

If the earth was flat, property at the edge would be worth a fortune.

 

[Harvey]

So it was really just a scam by realtors?

I'm hearing about forums banning talk of vaccines and masks because they are too political. Sad.

In our forum somebody called BS about discussing electric cars. "Obviously a political thread."

 

[southernlady]

If the earth was flat, property at the edge would be worth a fortune.

Unless God is a cat, in which case, it would be a dangerous place to live.

 

[Nev_Dull]

In our forum somebody called BS about discussing electric cars. "Obviously a political thread."

To be fair, the idea of electric cars can be political for some folk who find it an infringement of their right to internal combustion.

 

[ThornInYourSide]

Three year old thread gets bumped and nobody notices.


Any sites have rules on THAT? Some at least have an old thread notice in the posting screen .... 'This thread hasn't had replies in X days, are you sure you want to add to it?"... or something similar