Smf 2.1 a beauty

[Bigguy]

I'm not there yet but close. I was lookin at other forum software the other day.

 

[Antes]

You mean, you're using some unspecified version in the last few months that literally no one knows exactly where it's at, because you still don't make a note of what GitHub release you took, making it harder for everyone to help you debug problems.

Are they still adding features and major changes without testing them? I stopped looking after being so disgusted that they're still redoing things that are improvements, not bug fixes, meaning that actually dragging it over the line will take ever longer. I even gave up trying to keep track of bug fixes, because every bug fix would require subsequent fixes due to lack of testing.

So glad I forked and gave up worrying about upstream, made it so much easier to have a code base I could actually trust.

Beta4 is for github (only) version actually, its like the (If I remember well) having x.1.0 as beta x.2.0 as stable. RC1 will be the next release or at least its how its planned when I was in the team.

I don't see any major changes in code (apart from SCEditor upgrade which is 10000% needed). Tbh you should keep an eye on upstream still, especially Gwenwyfar & alberlast doing some nice changes.

 

[Pete]

Following upstream gives me more headache than ignoring it totally and doing my own thing. Every time, literally every time since May where I've pulled from upstream, it's given me new bugs to fix on top of whatever was changed.

In any case right now I'm busy doing something that should have been done a while ago: writing unit tests.

 

[ips_doug]

I'm not there yet but close. I was lookin at other forum software the other day.

I am looking at other forums too. I wish I did some research before deciding to go with Smf. I was not aware that developement is going so slow and probably it would be another couple of years before 2.1. reaches the stable version.

 

[Bigguy]

It may take awhile yes. I'm hopin the RC gets here before summer is over. From what GitHub said they are 89% complete from and RC release. I will say again though, they are doin a lot of work over there at GH. It's good to see.

 

[Pete]

I was not aware that developement is going so slow

To be fair it wasn't super speedy before 2.1 either - 2.0 started development late 2006, hit first RC status in 2009 (after admitting that RC1 really wasn't ready but bowing to community pressure), hit mostly ready to go RC in early 2010 with RC3, but didn't get final release until summer 2011 after two further RCs. Most of the people that really pushed dev along are long since moved on.

what GitHub said they are 89% complete from and RC release

That's based on the number of items tagged RC1 and then completed/not completed, which varies frequently. Compare with https://github.com/SimpleMachines/SMF2.1/issues/4485 and in particular observe how often the list has been edited, indicating a lot of fluctuation about what is and is not RC1.

The way it looks, is that they keep making non-bug-fix changes, finding bugs, fixing bugs, making more non-bug-fix changes - so putting off actually getting to an RC, because once it hits RC, it's much harder to justify anything that isn't purely bug fixing.

It also indicates that there is a lot of democracy in deciding what this is, rather than someone taking charge (and responsibility) to get it done. Me personally, I'd discourage this, I've long since thought that any successful open source project works by having a core team of contributors that are benevolent dictators; they take advice from the community but they dictate how it works, and they dictate what gets built. Everything else seems to become mired in trying to please all of the people all of the time and ending up satisfying no-one.

This is one of the things I love about StoryBB incidentally; it's never going to be mainstream and whatever features it does get will be driven by the core team doing their own feature analysis based on how they actually use it with their communities, and I'm completely comfortable building a platform that I suspect only a handful of sites will actually use.

 

[Bigguy]

I was thinking just yesterday that it seemed like they were putting off moving to RC but did not know why that would be. If it was me at this stage of the game I would want it out to the public fast. I knew about that link you posted. I watch that and the milestone part of gh for SMF. Plus check out all the conversations.

I don't mind as you say the "benevolent dictators" making it and controlling the build as long as they are building what the people want, within reason. The Devs have to decide how much work they want to put into it how much time is going to be spent not only on implementing features and security but keeping all that updated. They should have the last say for sure. I completely agree.

I think I have heard of storybb...I think, but Ihave been away from the net for a bit as well so I am a bit outdated.

 

[Pete]

I don't mind as you say the "benevolent dictators" making it and controlling the build as long as they are building what the people want, within reason

You misunderstand me. The benevolent dictators call all the shots. If it happens to be in line with what the users want, great, but the important thing is that they call the shots, not the other way around. The ones that try to listen to what the community want too much end up trying to build something for all the users, and nothing ever gets built that satisfies everyone, it just gets to a point where everyone is mildly tolerant of the outcome, if it actually gets to a point of actually being released.

The OSS projects that succeed are the ones where the management run the show. They may allow some guidance from the community but the management runs the show. Incidentally this is how SMF used to be, back when Jeff/Joseph/Unknown ran the show. They had a vision of where they wanted it to go and made it happen, and weren't shy about telling users they couldn't have things.

This is why Linux as a project succeeds: it has one guy up top deciding what goes in and what doesn't, and has been doing so for the last 20-odd years. He's also not shy about telling people when he thinks they're wrong, often with profanity, much to the tech press' delight since it's a cheap and easy story for them. But there's no denying that his process works. One person with a vision, being the gatekeeper for all decisions and movement in the project.

how much work they want to put into it how much time is going to be spent not only on implementing features and security but keeping all that updated. They should have the last say for sure. I completely agree.

Note that you're still missing the point I'm making, and I see nothing has really changed in your outlook in the last three years since we had this exact same debate. It's not about 'developers having the last say', it never was (because that only allows for developers reining in the excesses of the wider community, often not even the majority, but the voices of the vocal minority). As far as I'm concerned, developers are the only ones who should have any actual say, because they're the ones building it, and in a normal world, would be led by a person who has a vision on what the project's direction should be taking. This model appears to be working for XenForo and IPS - they're building the features they see as important, albeit guided by the community, but deliberately not trying to appease everyone all at the same time.

Maybe that direction is subtly influenced by what users want, maybe on some level it *should* be - but the assertion that it should be led and driven by the community continues to assume that the developers are not also part of the community. It assumes developers never run communities and have no idea what communities might need. It's nice to see your stance on that part, at least, has mellowed in the last three years, as I remember you telling me that my opinion as a developer didn't count and that I should just build what the users want because, of course, just because I'm a developer that somehow excludes me from running forums or something.

SMF is floundering because it has no leadership, no direction - and it's never going to be allowed to have any ever again, because those in the project's orbit have guaranteed that everything must be discussed and decided by everyone, guaranteeing that everyone will be unsatisfied with the outcome, and as a by-product preventing someone taking it by the reins and leading it with a single vision on where it should go next. MyBB and phpBB on the other hand have a slightly better time of it because their respective leaderships have some vision on where they see the projects going, though both are also in respective circles of development hell too.

I think I have heard of storybb...I think, but Ihave been away from the net for a bit as well so I am a bit outdated.

StoryBB is an SMF fork with a lot of very niche, specialised features making it totally unsuitable for general forum use, but very suitable for roleplay based forums.

 

[Bigguy]

I thought I was agreeing with you actually. I did say the devs should have the last word and that they should take suggestions from the community within reason. You can not and will not ever please everyone. That is why there has to be a guiding force. That guiding force must make the right choices in what they do. With a bit of say by the community. It's pretty much what you said that I am agreeing to. I don't mean the devs do what the community wants. Far from it. But because the community gets a small say they help shape the final product a little.

 

[AllanD]

2.1 was really nice at the time it was announced, which is why there are all the gradient in the design. But since it has taken them so long to release a stable version it is now outdated. SMF was never the easiest software to customize but I was hoping for improvements with the next version that we didn't get. Once a loyal fan of the software and defending the long release dates (years) it was time to move on.

 

[Bigguy]

It might be gettin time for me to do that as well. For different reasons though. Tryin to prove to them that I am who I am is very difficult, lol. Hard to explain but has to do with a hard drive crash and missing passwords. Back to the topic though. It has been a long time since they started working on 2.1 With all the internal problems they had over the years it's amazing to think 2.1 got this far. I remember something about yourasoft being created a long time ago and all those big problems. I hope they get 2.1 out the door soon. Github says it's 90% complete not for an rc release.

 

[AllanD]

Thinking the 90% is probably for a beta 4 release.

 

[Bigguy]

I am running beta 4 now. Check out github milestones:

https://github.com/SimpleMachines/SMF2.1/milestones

If you click on rc1 it tells what is left to go before they mark it rc1. If they are sticking to this. They seem to be

 

[Antes]

Thinking the 90% is probably for a beta 4 release.

There won't be a Beta4 release, RC1 is the next release.

 

[Pete]

I wouldn't trust the "90%" figure as far as I could throw it, it's a moving target list.

 

[AllanD]

I wouldn't trust the "90%" figure as far as I could throw it, it's a moving target list.

Isn't that the problem that the target isn't moving at all

 

[Pete]

Isn't that the problem that the target isn't moving at all

No, that's actually not the problem of recent times. Of recent times there are people who are building things, but they are building things that pretty much only they want, breaking things in the process and doing insufficient other things in terms of testing.

There has been a huge amount of overhaul lately for 'better Postgres support' except that as far as I know there's only two users of Postgres, both of whom are in the dev team and both are test environments. This has lead to a lot of widespread changes, none of which have been thoroughly tested.

 

[ips_doug]

The develpement is moving way too slow for me. I will be leaving Smf soon and go with Ipb.

 

[Bigguy]

Well, the milestones page on GH says they are at 100% complete for RC1. I have that up and running and so far it's good. With a few glitches of course. It is still named beta 4. I imagine that will be changed when they are ready to release it. That page also shows progress done to RC2, which is at 23% I think. I know that number floats but it's better than seeing 10% there, lol.

 

[zappaDPJ]

By the time SMF release 2.1 the 'Internet' will be a footnote in history. They haven't even managed to release a GDPR complacency update. I expect the EU will have disbanded before that gets done.