SMF 2.0.18 released

Pete

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Well, they’re still... a year? away from 2.1 stable and the times that beta/RC versions would be run in the main site are long gone.

then again I assumed the reason you’d left was because you’d had enough of me. But since I requested account deletion over there in November, you can safely not worry about me in future... I don’t run SMF any more.
 

davert

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Well, they’re still... a year? away from 2.1 stable and the times that beta/RC versions would be run in the main site are long gone.

then again I assumed the reason you’d left was because you’d had enough of me. But since I requested account deletion over there in November, you can safely not worry about me in future... I don’t run SMF any more.

Ouch. I'm sorry.

Did you start a fork? I recall someone here who was in SMF, left, and forked... I was wondering if that was gathering steam. Both the SMF forks I've seen looked great, but the first one looks like it's fizzled out, and I was a bit nervous about taking a chance on the second.

I admire and appreciate the SMF team for what it does, and I've paid into the voluntary contributions from time to time, but I gather that 2.1 has been in the works for a decade... I might be very wrong.
 

Pete

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Oh, I have way too much history in the forking game.

I'm one of the two devs behind Wedge but I couldn't deal with the personality of the other dev involved after a while and moved on. I have a second fork going on at the moment but it's firmly in the category of niche product use - unless you're going to be running a roleplay forum, you will have limited use for it.

(I am also ex-SMF dev team and I quit the team 7 years ago during 2.1 beta over how many pointless debates they had. So little has changed.)
 

davert

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I'm one of the two devs behind Wedge but I couldn't deal with the personality of the other dev involved after a while and moved on.
Thanks for the clarification. You appear to still be listed as one of the two project managers... the only posts on "who's working on it" are from 2010. Looks as though it's mainly stalled out.
 

Pete

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So my timeline: Wedge Aug 2010-Aug 2013, SMF 2.1 Sep 2013-Feb 2014, Levertine Gallery as an addon for SMF from Jul 2014-Jan 2015, then I basically walked away from forums until May 2017 when StoryBB was started after the mess that was 2.0.14 and I've been doing my own thing ever since. But StoryBB is not for general purpose use and the changes I've done along the way are pretty massive if you come from an SMF background.

I don't know why Nao hasn't updated the Wedge page seeing how he rebranded pretty much all the code to be copyrighted to him alone after I left.
 

davert

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Copyrights can be done wiht a single search and replace!

SMF starting in 2013 is not a good sign...

I'll look at StoryBB even if it's not for GP.
 

vbgamer45

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SMF 2.1 has had about 13,000 commits you can see full history of releases here over time. https://github.com/SimpleMachines/SMF2.1/releases
My take on it is, 2.1 is ready for normal use just minor issues here and there, and the focus is closing out the bug reports. there will be a 2.1 RC4 then probably final after that.
 

Pete

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SMF 2.1 wasn't started in 2013 though, it was started in 2011 - and the entire original 2.1 dev team had left before I rejoined in 2013.

I stopped trying to follow the changes after part way into RC1, because I saw more and more head-scratching changes. But then again I don't run regular forums any more.

At this stage, though, yes, it's _probably_ ready for common use and the focus is on fixing bug reports but all I have to say to that is 'look at the patches since 2.0.12'.
 

davert

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There is a lot of activity, but I hate to put effort into skinning 2.0 when 2.1 is around the corner, and there's no automatic upgrade, if I read the instructions correctly, from RC3 to RC4 to final. I guess you're right that it's still under active development, though. Now that I look at it, there are a few different developers involved, too.
 

Pete

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Oh, I've never disputed that the development is *active*. I just think there's an *awful* lot of effort put into things that don't need to be put into.

For example, there is a bug in 2.0 that if you write to Settings.php too often it's possible to nuke that file. Now, we could do what the SMF team to solve this bug in 2.1 - pour many, many hours into making the routine capable of reconstituting the file as needed, in a really weird and spring-loaded way.

Or you could spend less time moving things... out of Settings.php thus having less reason to write to it in the first place. Other systems don't habitually write to their config file. The only reasons SMF does are hereditary and it's time to move on from them.

It's not the only example; but it's the one that keeps coming to mind: vast amounts of time and engineering solving a problem that, well, disproportionately fewer people had, and were solvable in better ways. I've recently seen an RC3 - I couldn't actually tell you for sure without really kicking the tyres what has changed in the time since 2014. I know a great many things have changed, I just have no idea what they are without looking at the code.

I think it's an engineering marvel, some of the things that have been done (and you can quote me on that for whatever that's worth). I just also think that they were overengineering things that could have been solved better by not solving the symptoms but solving the underlying problems instead.
 

davert

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Oh, I've never disputed that the development is *active*. I just think there's an *awful* lot of effort put into things that don't need to be put into.
It was interesting to see the content of the commits, and that's as far as I will “commit” myself, but your examples are pretty interesting. Nice glimpse into the culture and helpful criticism if anyone from the current team is watching.
 

Oldiesmann

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I stopped their support forum over a year ago since it isn't mobile-friendly. They have version 2.1 available, which is mobile-friendly, yet they refuse to sport it.
Who said they refuse to use it? It's still in development and the forum is heavily integrated with the rest of the site so a lot of testing needs to be done to ensure everything works properly before an upgrade can take place. Then there's a matter of the server/site people having free time to do the upgrade and monitor to ensure everything goes properly. It will happen in due time.
 

Pete

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There was a time RCs were run on the site... because 2.0‘s RCs from RC2 were run on the site if memory serves.

The integrations aren’t that brittle.
 

Zelda

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System Machine Forums (SMF) is the development you want to like, but somehow, you cannot bring yourself to do so. Reviewing their online support community reveals there has been too much in-house fighting among developers, forum staff, and community members on occasion. If I have understood everything correctly, the development team has changed hands more than once too. Nearly a decade later and they are still working on release v2.1, with RC4 sitting mostly in limbo https://github.com/SimpleMachines/SMF2.1/milestone/8 . I do not mean to necessarily hate on their development, of course. Visually for a classic-style thread forum, it is a bit appealing. Nothing sexy about it, but I have seen worse. Plus, I cannot recall the last time I heard of a 'System Machine Forum' ever experiencing significant issues. That leaves me to assume what they have developed much be relatively stable and secure (?).
 

Zelda

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Stable, secure and fast but in desperate need of modernization which seems highly unlikely under the current management.
There is still something to be said for the classic design, but I would question whether or not their layout was responsive on a mobile device or not. It appears to fit my Kindle Tablet nicely. Still, I ask if that results from Mozilla Focus's adaptivity or the actual layout.
 

zappaDPJ

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I don't find the official forum which uses a non-responsive design particularly usable but the project manager says it's fine...

Also, I'm actually currently reading this forum, replying to this post on a smart phone. No issues here.

In my view this is one area that needs updating and it probably will be if and when 2.1 gets released but that's getting on for 10 years in the making so I wouldn't even like to guess which year or even decade it'll finally be released.

Here's a screen-grab on an iPhone 11 of the official forum. It looks usable until you reduce it down to the actual screen size.

IMG_1104.PNG
 

Pete

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I remember joking about it in 2011 and saying then, tongue in cheek, it’d be 2020. Here we are.

2.1 is more responsive for sure, but for what was always intended as a “minor updates, it’s dragging its heels because no one has a vision of what “finished” looks like for this version.

There are also some aspects I would suggest are... overengineered at this point to avoid solving the real problems.
 

Joel R

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Nov 24, 2013
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Oh, I have way too much history in the forking game.

I'm one of the two devs behind Wedge but I couldn't deal with the personality of the other dev involved after a while and moved on. I have a second fork going on at the moment but it's firmly in the category of niche product use - unless you're going to be running a roleplay forum, you will have limited use for it.

(I am also ex-SMF dev team and I quit the team 7 years ago during 2.1 beta over how many pointless debates they had. So little has changed.)
I liked Wedge!
 

Shawn Gossman

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I got to say, SMF looks exactly the same as it did back when I was using it how ever many years ago that was. I mean it doesn't look like anything has changed.
 
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