Price hike, no more ticket support - enough signals from Invision

[Pete]

Why not take the whole cake to make the maximum profit? So both enterprise customers and the hobby sites. To focus only on the few Enterprise customers would be a big mistake in my opinion. Or what customers with an available budget of over $6000 run a forum nowadays?

Well, let's get them comparable first... on the one hand, you could have just the calendar - no renewal, or just the Gallery for $30/year renewal which is $2.50 a month in renewal fees. Or you could have just the forum at $80/year ($6.66/month). Or even a fully loaded IPS self-hosted is $300 renewal for the year, giving you $25 per month as the best case deal.

Consider for a moment, $25/month vs $6000/month. Now, let's put aside the specifics of support and the differences between supporting self-hosting vs supporting cloud, and simply consider for a minute the cost of simply *interacting* is a tricky comparison.

I don't know how much the IPS folks are paid, but I consider that if a single self-hoster makes a topic for support, once a month, the simple cost of IPS staff responding to it has a chance of that being a net loss to IPS to service that depending on how long they spend on the issue.

Is that possible with the enterprise customer? Sure, but they're also likely to put their hands in their pockets for further support.

 

[zappaDPJ]

Consider that there are companies paying ten times that monthly for however Lithium Social forum software is called now.

Lithium merged with Spredfast to become Khoros. More recently Khoros has gone into acquisition mode taking in companies specializing in analytics and AI. It's way more powerful than any other platforms talked about here but as you quite rightly say, it's also cost prohibitive. That said, the cost is immaterial to the companies who use it.

 

[Ramses]

$6000/month

$6000 a year (!). Now look at the average forum operators, they buy one time forum, gallery, pages $500 then annually for renewal $150. Some customers pay a little less, but some pay much more. If we calculate 100 new customers per year with average revenue of $300 that's 300x100=$30,000. To achieve that with business key accounts you would need six of them per year. Really big fish that could pay even more, such as LEGO, HTC, Sage, Mattel, you get maybe once every two years. I'm sure no one here knows the exact numbers, but I would roughly estimate that the ratio between normal customers and major customers in income per year is maybe 50:50. But you are right, cloud customers cause less support costs.

 

[Pete]

$6000 a year (!). Now look at the average forum operators, they buy one time forum, gallery, pages $500 then annually for renewal $150. Some customers pay a little less, but some pay much more. If we calculate 100 new customers per year with average revenue of $300 that's 300x100=$30,000. To achieve that with business key accounts you would need six of them per year. Really big fish that could pay even more, such as LEGO, HTC, Sage, Mattel, you get maybe once every two years. I'm sure no one here knows the exact numbers, but I would roughly estimate that the ratio between normal customers and major customers in income per year is maybe 50:50. But you are right, cloud customers cause less support costs.

My bad, $6000/year, $500 a month - still 20x the revenue of the top of the self-hosting tier. And that's not the biggest plan.

However, you're arguing that the 'average forum operator' buys those modules... I really don't think the *average* buys those. I reckon forum on its own ($80/year) or *maybe* forum + pages ($120/year).

I think $300 revenue for a customer is achievable; that's forum + 1 renewal. Let's be fair and call it $250 + $80 = $330 for forum plus one year's renewal. Versus $6000 for a business customer.

IPS clearly feels that it's becoming a fairer tradeoff for 20 hobbyists per business tier (not even enterprise) customer. And that's just the revenue before you factor in the relative costs of servicing the accounts.

 

[zoldos]

No ticket support for a paid software suite? What the freak? Besides, I haven't used Invision since 2006. lol

 

[FTL]

No ticket support for a paid software suite? What the freak? Besides, I haven't used Invision since 2006. lol

It's not quite zero. Customers can't log tickets, but they can make forum posts asking for a ticket to be logged due to the nature of their issue, eg account profile personal info, and the staff will log one. Apparently members generally like it.

 

[Pete]

It means that the pool of knowledge is larger for general support, and private support can be obtained where relevant or appropriate.

 

[haqzore]

It means that the pool of knowledge is larger for general support, and private support can be obtained where relevant or appropriate.

Wow. Way to go entirely off topic.

Had you actually read the thread, you'd see we are discussing unsubstantiated & emotional claims of non support via implementation of the exact support model many of these complainers wanted in the past.

Please do better next time & leave logic out of discussions it clearly has no place in.

 

[Pete]

Who has time for reading threads in a forum? Who can be bothered? Forums are dying, didn't you know?

 

[Pete]

My reply was somewhat tongue-in-cheek in reference to the previous posts and leaving logic at the door, but the sentiment you're describing is absolutely valid - and I find myself in a similar enough position.

I don't know if this is solely because of the usual arguments or because I've changed and my priorities are different now about where and how I spend my time, such that I perceive it more.

 

[zappaDPJ]

I also find in recent times I'm far more selective when it comes to joining a new forum or making a post. It's for the same reason Tracy Perry mentioned above, I generally prefer to interact with people I'm familiar with.

 

[Nev_Dull]

I generally prefer to interact with people I'm familiar with.

I'm much the same way. It's because we are old. As we age, we tend to gravitate towards the familiar. We keep more to our familiar circle of friends; we are less likely to try new types of music or books. It has to do with the deterioration of the striatum in the brain which has to do with developing new strategies and schema.

Golden years, my arse!

 

[eva2000]

I'm much the same way. It's because we are old.

I find denial helps

 

[whitetigergrowl]

I’ve wondered about that a lot. Especially when I think about XenForo’s pricing, which is definitely still in the hobbyist tier, but if they were to bring out a set of first party plugins to realistically compete with IPS, I wonder if we’d be having the same discussion about XF pricing themselves out of the hobbyist market.

The reality is though that businesses do have bigger pockets for funding and IPS has, what, 20 people on staff these days. That immediately sets out a position of overheads that has to be accounted for, vs the 5-6 at XF.

This is a perfect example of putting all of the eggs in one basket and ultimately pricing themselves out of the market. Especially in this horrible economy as businesses and people look to tighten their budgets/wallets and their spending and find cheaper alternatives that are similar to what they currently use.

I know of companies that are moving and have moved away from forums and to other forms of communication to modernize and cut costs.

The forums we see today are just relics of a bygone era. Sure they will stick around in some capacity and serve some purpose, but they are limited by their lack of innovation and are entrenched with a slow ability to try and catch up with the modern times. By the time they catch up they are already usually outdated.

Most forum owners make little to no money back to sustain their forum. It's just a personal investment. The money they spend to buy and renew their software as well as hosting costs and the time they put into it, in most cases will never be recouped. So it's nothing more than a labor of love with no real economic upside.

And pushing for enterprises for money and essentially abandoning the hobbyists except for the few with money to burn, is just too risky in this economic and modernization climate.

Even if I owned a multi-million dollar corporation and had money to burn, I could never justify the insane costs of running or using forum software like what IPB is doing. I would rather use more modern forms of communication that aren't based and modeled on an aging infrastructure but are wanting premium pricing for using it.

Their choice. But the all eggs in one basket approach long term could end up hurting them if they don't start innovating and modernizing rather than basing and working everything around an old structure with a few modern elements that are starting to become outdated because forum software creators can't seem to keep up with the rapidly changing online and social worlds and their requirements.

Forums may not die, but they will certainly not have the prominence, innovation, or necessity that they used to at the current rate and path they are going. Thus forcing many hobbyists and corporations to leave them behind.

Best of luck to all of you forum owners or those looking into going into running forums. And best of luck to forum creators. Putting a new paint job and racing stripes on the jalopy car doesn't suddenly make its value worth the extra money you want for it now.

And looking at posts on this website of forums people were working on just in the last several months that they proudly showcased on this website, many, if not most, are essentially dead now. Just sitting their like lifeless corpses with little to no activity. What's sad is some looked really good. But no one seems to actually care much about them enough to visit and post on them. Sad to see honestly.

 

[rafalp]

Even if I owned a multi-million dollar corporation and had money to burn, I could never justify the insane costs of running or using forum software like what IPB is doing. I would rather use more modern forms of communication that aren't based and modeled on an aging infrastructure but are wanting premium pricing for using it.

How can you explain that mullti-million dollar corporations use community software from vendors like Khoros, Telligent or SalesForce that are famous for monthly pricing starting at $35.000 while this software is famous for being very corporate and behind the modern times?

 

[mysiteguy]

How can you explain that mullti-million dollar corporations use community software from vendors like Khoros, Telligent or SalesForce that are famous for monthly pricing starting at $35.000 while this software is famous for being very corporate and behind the modern times?

I explain it as IT managers deciding it's the "safe" choice to go with well-known business oriented platforms, rather than with platforms that are often better.

It's much like IBM of the past --- there used to be a saying "You won't get fired for buying IBM". The same with AWS, sometimes it is a good choice but very often it's not and costs companies far more than other solutions - but it's a "safe" choice for an IT manager to make.

 

[whitetigergrowl]

How can you explain that mullti-million dollar corporations use community software from vendors like Khoros, Telligent or SalesForce that are famous for monthly pricing starting at $35.000 while this software is famous for being very corporate and behind the modern times?

Because this isn't the same. The needs aren't the same. What is offered isn't the same. As well, there are and may be certain abilities and features you only get with them you don't get with IPB or forum software in general.

You cannot convince me that a 20 yr old structure that struggles to innovate and stay with the times in a timely manner is a good choice. What you see now may have some back end improvements, but on the front end everything else is just new paint on an aging structure.

Forum software has been late to the party for some time now. Always playing catch up. Not innovating like they used to.

As well, I have no idea why you chose those as your options. Many companies are moving away from forum structures all together. It comes down to numerous factors.

Forum software is behind the times. Proof? They (forum makers in general) haven't done much of squat to really innovate and better incorporate member profiles. Most people don't do anything with them. They just, exist for no reason. They serve no real purpose and haven't for almost 20 years. And the only real change to the forum is, wow, you can now make them into blocks, just to go back to the linear structure you moved the main forums from.

And don't get me started on the # of clicks just to do basic things.

And for what IPB charges now you would think it would have some basic functionality for things like its gallery like what Xenforo has. But they don't.

As I said, forums in their current form will serve some sort of purpose to someone. But it won't be as big as it used to be.

Hobbyists struggle to create viable forums that are active. Many just end up dead in a matter of months. It's sad.

Corporations are moving away from forums as a whole for multiple reasons. They want easier, faster, more efficient ways to communicate that aren't just 'click, click, click, click, click, enter'.

You will see forum prices rise not just because of inflation. But because of the bottom line. It's text book. As demand for things go down, prices go up to compensate for what is lost to try and stay relevant longer. However that too eventually catches up because as prices go up, it then forces others away once it's outside of their budget. It's a double edged sword.

Everyone knows IPB has never been #1. It's had the potential to be, but for one reason or another never reached it. They have always been relegated to second or third place. Or further down. They don't have the same online reach or presence as the newcomer Xenforo. Nor did they with Vbulletin.

Which makes some of these decisions by them so interesting. They clearly are moving beyond hobbyists to corporations. But many corporations too are moving from forums. So what do you do then?

Forum software is no longer the only option. There are better and more social means to communicate internally and externally. It all comes down to what a business is looking for.

Forums will serve a purpose, to an extent. But it won't be anything like it used to be unless someone innovates and gets the online and corporate community excited again to want to use them and spend the money on them.

 

[Pete]

Forum software is behind the times. Proof? They (forum makers in general) haven't done much of squat to really innovate and better incorporate member profiles. Most people don't do anything with them.

You keep saying this but you never actually suggest what you think the alternative should be.

But it won't be as big as it used to be.

No-one is arguing this. I point, yet again, to the observation that a lot of things that once were forums were only forums because better alternatives didn't exist. Many of those *shouldn't have been forums*, but were anyway. The reality is that the drop looks more precipitous than it should have done because we had a larger bubble before.

They clearly are moving beyond hobbyists to corporations. But many corporations too are moving from forums. So what do you do then?

Are they, though? Or is that a narrative we want to hear because we're bitter about them pricing themselves out of our reach? IPS has made some interesting acquisitions in the forum space in the last while, e.g. the veteran MMO Guild Wars 2's community forum is now IPS based. I see other venues that are now IPS that weren't before. Clearly they're doing something right.

 

[Joel R]

Hobbyists struggle to create viable forums that are active. Many just end up dead in a matter of months. It's sad.

No, it's not sad. It's healthy.

Real picture of Joel every time he glances over at the TAZ showcase​

These are useless, aimless, zero strategy, zero content, weekend flings of glorified web admins who spend all their time installing themes but have no real objectives, tactics, community strategy, or competitive benefit. These are the ones that you're sad for? The entire TAZ showcase is actually a disservice to new admins; it's a case study in how to NOT run communities.

If TAZ wants to move forward, we need to collectively stop with the nostalgia-fest and professionalize our community techniques and discussions. Communities and online groups will always thrive. As long as humans express a need to gather, to discuss, to share, to laugh, to have interests and be interesting and to emotionally connect, there will be a need for communities. Furthermore, the world has doubled the number of online users in the last decade. There is now greater opportunity than ever before to thrive!

I also want to reiterate (which I've done over and over again) that it's okay to not host on forums. There is almost no need to run your own independent self-hosted community when starting new. There are a plethora of group- and community-building platforms. Let's focus on the community aspect, and less on the forum aspect, and we'll realize the immense potential that is growing every day for all of us.

If you can't afford the $250 self-hosted cost for Invision Community, it's okay. If you can't afford the $89 / mo Creator Tier for Invision Community, it's okay too. There are free, easy-to-start platforms that are probably better for you and your budget anyways.

 

[Kaelon]

These are useless, aimless, zero strategy, zero content, weekend flings of glorified web admins who spend all their time installing themes but have no real objectives, tactics, community strategy, or competitive benefit. These are the ones that you're sad for? The entire TAZ showcase is actually a disservice to new admins; it's a case study in how to NOT run communities.

If TAZ wants to move forward, we need to collectively stop with the nostalgia-fest and professionalize our community techniques and discussions. Communities and online groups will always thrive. As long as humans express a need to gather, to discuss, to share, to laugh, to have interests and be interesting and to emotionally connect, there will be a need for communities. Furthermore, the world has doubled the number of online users in the last decade. There is now greater opportunity than ever before to thrive!

I also want to reiterate (which I've done over and over again) that it's okay to not host on forums. There is almost no need to run your own independent self-hosted community when starting new. There are a plethora of group- and community-building platforms. Let's focus on the community aspect, and less on the forum aspect, and we'll realize the immense potential that is growing every day for all of us.

I just want to echo my enthusiastic agreement with everything you've stated above.

For much of the web's early existence, the role of content creator, technical administrator, and community manager have all been rolled into one. Remember when we called them "webmasters"? The quaintness of the term long outlived its continued application in the form of forum admins, who were responsible for all the steps of "building" things - but when everything is a priority, nothing becomes a priority. Community building is totally different from web design and maintenance, and further both are completely different from content creation. This became really apparent when the three disciplines started to naturally trifurcate in the mid-2000s:

• YouTube and, much later, Instagram, both ushered in the age of user generated content, media (images and videos) dominating over text, and were largely intertwined with the success of mobile and touch interfaces as the years would roll on.
  
  
• Software-as-a-Service, the so-called "Cloud," and all sorts of turnkey one-stop shops to build websites-in-a-box, led to a radical explosion in the "blogosphere" (remember that term, too?), and almost as quickly, the service providers realized they could combine all of the various pieces into what would eventually become dominant forms of social media, beginning with Friendster and MySpace, and eventually perfected by Facebook.
  
  
• Community Building became a real profession. I worked for over five years as a "digital strategist" building online communities, first for political campaigns, and then for non-profit organizations and companies. Organizations started to understand the value of the captive audience, and what an audience can do to drive action, engagement, and revenue -- but these were all forms of marketing campaigns and longer-tail engagement frameworks requiring constant nurturing. We've all seen the meme from GetSatisfaction that exploded in the early 2010s about the many pieces of the brain that a Community Manager needs to be successful.

The separation of these three crafts showcased the utter amateur absurdity of so many forum owners, and exposed a lot of what they/we do as essentially a hobby. When forum admins recognized their limitations, they had one of three ways to go:

1. Treat it as a hobby, and eventually lose out on the revenue; OR,
2. Treat it as a business, and start hiring professionals to do the roles you need; OR,
3. Treat it as a movement, and develop all sorts of channels everywhere you could to attract mindshare.

The problem with all three approaches is that the Internet as a whole began to evolve, away from independent websites and into consolidated application ecosystems. This was largely predictable -- as the Internet became more commercialized, efficiencies became too irresistible to the revenue streams involved. The rise of the so-called "Creator Economy" showcases how companies understood this and created platforms, and would share revenue, with user-generated content creators and help them monetize their followers -- it's largely responsible for platforms like Twitch and OnlyFans today, generating hundreds of millions of dollars in revenues for people who have no real technical skillset or community-building expertise. This is just one example, and the consolidation has led to the common understanding that users are the product, not the customer. So, here we are.

If we are serious about community engagement, we need to understand that systemic disintermediation between infrastructure (administration), creation (content), and engagement (community) has taken place and is, at this stage, largely irreversible. So we should be learning what are the best pieces of what makes these three streams so efficient, so lucrative, so compelling to have captured the overwhelming mindshare of most of the digital planet, and then decide how we as individual Internet pioneers and digital strategists want to play.