No access to previous versions of IPB

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Matt M

Director Development at Invision Community
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I really do not think that it's a fair argument to say "I paid for software once, so the company should always allow me to download that frozen in time version forever."

I cannot think of many other businesses that would do this.

I use a lot of software, and when the license expires and I need to re-download it, I accept that I need to pay for it again.

We do not tie license costs to a specific version. If you bought a license in 2008 and stopped using it in 2009, all you would need to pay to restore access to the very latest version, which would include roughly $1.5m in development hours since your original purchase is $25.

It's hardly a money grab.
 

Pete

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It's been a while since I've used IPB, and so I wanted to mess around first with the version I had access to, and then I find out I can't even access that version because they want me to pay to gain access to files I already had access to before. Really it's poor on the company because it's a money grab.

If you just want to try out IPB where it is now (rather than where it was a number of years ago) which would be a vastly better test of whether you want to use it going forward, IPS does have a demo you can try.
 

we_are_borg

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I really do not think that it's a fair argument to say "I paid for software once, so the company should always allow me to download that frozen in time version forever."

I cannot think of many other businesses that would do this.

I use a lot of software, and when the license expires and I need to re-download it, I accept that I need to pay for it again.

We do not tie license costs to a specific version. If you bought a license in 2008 and stopped using it in 2009, all you would need to pay to restore access to the very latest version, which would include roughly $1.5m in development hours since your original purchase is $25.

It's hardly a money grab.
I can see where you are coming from but access to the latest version you could download is the best curtesy you can give to a customer. I have a copy on my NAS server of the current software i use on my site. But in January of this year 3 of 4 drives failed i lost almost all my data, the majority of data is not important but docs, images, etc is. Luckily i use RAID 5 so i rebuild everything replaced the worst drive first and so on. So i have everything still, to my shock some stuff (the most important files) where not on the secondary backup. So i could have lost the files to my website. You know that issues never come alone so if i would have lost the IPB files and something happened i would have been in deep trouble.

Lets say something happened with my site and i need to restore files i’m lucky i have copy of the files but what if i’m not. Well i need to pay the renewal price thats at that point no issue because issue needs to be resolved. But now i have access to newer files then i’m using so i need to do an emergency upgrade but in the mean time my site can be down because of issues. Had i access to the one i downloaded latest i could be running in minutes but upgrading can take hours. Not to say anything about that you need to upgrade themes and add-ons maybe against more money.

Most companies to either three things, like IPS nothing do not care you pay or no access, second like XF and vBulletin access to previous version(s). Third you pay like 5 to 10 dollars to always have access to the latest version you had access to when you needed to renew. Strangely i always pay the 5 to 10 dollars because its cheap and if something happens you still have access.
 

Matt M

Director Development at Invision Community
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Next time you download Invision Community, put a copy of the Zip in your own private dropbox folder then you don't need to worry about 4 drive NAS servers or paying $10 to access an old copy.
 

we_are_borg

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Well made the choice 12 years ago to buy a Synology NAS to run tasks on it instead of PC also the added benefit of RAID 5 is a plus to have. What i said about 3 drives failing at once is rare but it can happen. Normaly i have m-disk backup but in this case a few files where not archived. I’m thinking about an extra layer of backup just to be sure. Your solution of dropbox is nice but i do not only have IPS to think about but more and if i renew i need to remember to make new zip upload delete older one if needed etc. But i have more then IPS to think about so companies like XF and vBulletin are better in customer service then IPS.
 

Ramses

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@NYCGuy76 Why would any company put themselves in a position that could damage their reputation just because someone wants to install potentially unsafe unupdated software? Who would be liable if the other clients and host have issues as a result? Your argument to support this practice makes no sense to me... Would you allow a security company to install an unreliable system and software to your home or business?
How on earth could vBulletin do this? You still can download each single version in a patched release.
vbulletin.jpg
 

Pete

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vWho, very droll indeed.

XenForo on the other hand do do what the OP is asking, so clearly it‘s considered to be within some level of industry norm.

FWIW when you stop hosting with us (and you’re on a subscription to a given product), we just give you a copy of the git repository as at the termination date and bid you good day, with no future access, so it is also well within industry norm to do what IPS is doing.

And our arena is vastly more expensive than IPS, even though our main hosting is hosting open source software. We don’t get out of bed for less than £4K a year for even the smallest customer.
 

Nev_Dull

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There's a good argument to be made for only having the most recent version of some software available. Most companies would want to ensure their clients are getting the best version. However, there are cases where having older versions available is beneficial and I think forum software is one of those cases. Most forums have multiple addons and custom additions tailored to that specific version. Upgrading is not always simple or easy.

we_are_borg makes a valid point. Things happen and files get corrupted or deleted. And not everyone keeps backups of all their software in case of disaster. Being able to easily download an older version of the software to quickly repair and bring the site back online is a huge win from a customer service standpoint and costs the company very little. Telling that same customer "Sorry, you'll just have to upgrade the entire site to the latest version," doesn't do much for the company's reputation with that client or everyone they know.

As to the security argument, I'm concerned. I'm not an IPS customer and the idea that all the previous versions of the software are so rife with flaws as to make them dangerous to install (as suggested by posts above) does not make me want to be one.
 

Bionic Rooster

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Some hosts do pretty much the same thing with PHP versions. I ran a very nice looking (IMO) forum on PHP5.4 until they updated to PHP7+ with no support for the older versions requiring a total remake and upgrade for all our software.
 

Claverhouse

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The trouble is not only do devs have a manic bolshevik determination to make sure people are forced to use their latest new shiny; whether with websites [ GET OUR NEW VERSION HERE !!! --- after which it's difficult to revert back ] or software, the new is always hideous disgusting 'clean', 'minimalist', 'flat' crap that is freaking fugly.

Even my beloved KDE is appreciably less pretty than it was 10 years ago.



And as with anything else to scare the rubes into the corral, including internet spying by various agencies, or Google's recent '5 Browsers Only' big push, the rationale is always safety and security ! Danger ! Danger !

Despite the fact I personally have never got malware, and that if I did, I would simply nuke and replace. Same as with an OS. This isn't Nuclear War Danger...


I partially blame WordPress's 'Fascist Mantra' of Decisions, Not Options, which is defined as they decide and the user can't change it, for modern devs' hatred of freedom.



[ Nothing against IPS, not having used it. But as with Nev_Dull above, I wouldn't consider using it if this is their policy. ]
 

Taylor J

Fan
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Messages
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I also wish they would allow us to use previous versions (I miss the 2.x and 3.x) mainly due to the addons/free and paid styles available back then and also wanting to use it for personal reasons. I can learn how to patch it up and maybe even work on newer php versions when/if needed.

Well made the choice 12 years ago to buy a Synology NAS to run tasks on it instead of PC also the added benefit of RAID 5 is a plus to have. What i said about 3 drives failing at once is rare but it can happen. Normaly i have m-disk backup but in this case a few files where not archived. I’m thinking about an extra layer of backup just to be sure. Your solution of dropbox is nice but i do not only have IPS to think about but more and if i renew i need to remember to make new zip upload delete older one if needed etc. But i have more then IPS to think about so companies like XF and vBulletin are better in customer service then IPS.
I'm not sure how you feel about Google but I think they actually have a CLI that can be used to automate the uploading of files (others may have it as well but not sure).
 

Pete

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The trouble is not only do devs have a manic bolshevik determination to make sure people are forced to use their latest new shiny; whether with websites [ GET OUR NEW VERSION HERE !!! --- after which it's difficult to revert back ] or software, the new is always hideous disgusting 'clean', 'minimalist', 'flat' crap that is freaking fugly.

Even my beloved KDE is appreciably less pretty than it was 10 years ago.



And as with anything else to scare the rubes into the corral, including internet spying by various agencies, or Google's recent '5 Browsers Only' big push, the rationale is always safety and security ! Danger ! Danger !

Despite the fact I personally have never got malware, and that if I did, I would simply nuke and replace. Same as with an OS. This isn't Nuclear War Danger...


I partially blame WordPress's 'Fascist Mantra' of Decisions, Not Options, which is defined as they decide and the user can't change it, for modern devs' hatred of freedom.



[ Nothing against IPS, not having used it. But as with Nev_Dull above, I wouldn't consider using it if this is their policy. ]

As a developer I feel I should represent the alternative to this narrative (and I dare say Matt M will have some similar views on the subject)

”You must be on the latest xyz” is predominantly not about a manic communist policy. It is simple practicality: we have a finite amount of time and supporting older versions of things comes at the expense of not improving the current thing. Which if your business model is selling a product, you have to give people a reason to keep paying, like new features.

The “new” being ”clean” or “minimalist” is reflective of software trying to stay relevant. Mostly it seems to be some weird reactionary phase; a few years ago everything was curved and shadows everywhere and gradients because browsers finally added these things, and for a while they flourished, but as ever “less is more”.

You might not have had malware, but I’ve certainly had enough to clean up in the past. Prevention is better than cure for sure.

As for hatred of freedom, it really isn’t. On the one hand it again stems from “we have a finite amount of time” and trying to prioritise what we can do with it. The other is, interestingly, what open source software tends to produce, because it gets ideas about how to be open to everyone so everything becomes configurable. It also has a tendency to become unmaintainable into the bargain if you’re not super careful because having so many options generates so many permutations of things to test. It also has a lot of user confusion attached.

We as a collective try to get it right. Some of us succeed better than others, but it’s not for the reasons alluded to.

But sure, let’s roll with the narrative that we’re all mad powermongers hell bent on denying you freedoms.
 

Matt M

Director Development at Invision Community
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
368
The trouble is not only do devs have a manic bolshevik determination to make sure people are forced to use their latest new shiny; whether with websites [ GET OUR NEW VERSION HERE !!! --- after which it's difficult to revert back ] or software, the new is always hideous disgusting 'clean', 'minimalist', 'flat' crap that is freaking fugly.

Common sense has left the chat.

Here is a fairly common support scenario:

Customer: X has a bug.
Us: Yes, sorry about that, it's fixed in the latest version.
Customer: I don't want to upgrade.
Us: Well, it's quite simple. You can do it from your Admin CP now.
Customer: Nah, I'm good.
Us: Well, ok then.
Customer: So, any chance of fixing that bug?
Us: Yes, we did 5 months ago, we release fixes to bugs called upgrades.
Customer: But I don't want to upgrade.
Us: ....

If competitors choose to allow older versions of their software which contain known vulnerabilities, and will not run on any secure server and enjoy increasing their own support demand from customers running old versions on insecure servers with bugs long since fixed, that is very much up to them.

We're not providing a historic library of software, we're producing the very best community platform we can to give your community the best chance at success. Focus on that more than the right to slam the oven door on your own fingers in the name of democratic freedom.

Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.
 

we_are_borg

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Now you have corrupt files on server what then if trying to upload from your local storage and it does not work, best thing is going to source and redownload the files. But you cant IPS is not allowing it. So now i need like i said do an emergency upgrade thats not the way to do this, this can be more damaging then using an old version.
 

Bionic Rooster

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But sure, let’s roll with the narrative that we’re all mad powermongers hell bent on denying you freedoms.
I'm up for that but only if you wear latex and utilize whips and chain restraints.
1614258812578.png
 

Bionic Rooster

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We're not providing a historic library of software, we're producing the very best community platform we can to give your community the best chance at success. Focus on that more than the right to slam the oven door on your own fingers in the name of democratic freedom.
Like he said, pretty much sums it all up. :tup:
 
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