IPS: Your passion will cost $1068 per year. And you won't be even be a pro. That's a more expensive plan. You're just the cheap passionate.

FTL

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Making things optional is a surprising bane of development and something that a lot of people seem to assume is easy.

It’s honestly not. If you were to have a test system that could test every combination of options, a simple on/off switch doubles the test cases each time. 5 on/off switches = 32 possible combinations. 10 on/off switches = 1024 combinations. 20 on/off switches = 1048576 combinations.

And then if you don’t have tests for all the things people get upset when things are buggy.

It is not sustainable to make everything optional, and to a point nor should it be. I’d rather platforms make their choices and run with it, with plugins for things that people do or don’t want.

It’s kind of the same as the Microsoft Word problem. Everyone uses 2% of its functionality but everyones’ 2% is different.
Yes, it means more effort to program it, obviously. But no, one doesn't have to test every combination which would indeed rise exponentially. On top of that, having post numbers is a long-solved problem and something that used to be implemented, so really shouldn't be hard to make optional. I'm not saying to make everything optional either, but this is a major forum feature, one that just about every other forum software has and that does matter. Why would other forum software implement it if it wasn't useful and / or important? After all, it takes development time, effort and cost, just like you're saying.

I really dislike being forced into developer limitations, quite often for no good reason and I'm including everything in this, not just computers. One design niggle with my car for example: with the driver's side electric window, one can let the button go and the window keeps going up or down until it reaches the end of its travel. Great, just how I like it, but none of the other windows do. Instead, I have to hold that sodding button all the way. Why not make it at least a cost option on the passenger side front window? One that I operate quite often, not so much the rear windows. I find it really irksome that I can't have it at any price. One can again argue about design and production costs bla bla bla, but I still bet they could have offered it. It's crap like this, the post numbers and other similar niggles one sees in many things that bothers me.

Re the Word problem example. That's actually a great reason to stuff it with as many features as possible so that it caters for the needs of the widest selection of customers possible. Quality code will avoid many bugs and there's always patches at a later date when bugs are found, as happens anyway.

And in the end, there's this point: they have the right to remove a feature and piss off their customers and I have the right to walk away from their product when said missing feature is important to me. Everybody's happy, or unhappy depending on viewpoint.
 

Pete

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What's your point?

My point is that my entire day job is taken up by people like you who believe the hype and then find it has bitten them *so* hard when they discover what it costs to actually untangle the mess they have gotten themselves into. Often more expensive than if they'd gotten someone to build it properly in the first place.
 

Pete

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On top of that, having post numbers is a long-solved problem and something that used to be implemented, so really shouldn't be hard to make optional.

Is that why there are multiple (different) implementations of the solution that have their own pros and cons? For example, vB of old had a different solution to how everyone else does it, which would incidently solve DanielF's issue where the numbers would be kept consistent even if things were deleted, by storing the post number in the post. But no-one else does that.

In addition this also reflects a difference of logic in the world; SMF doesn't keep deleted posts in thread so that drama changes the dynamics of how this plays out for moderators and admins.

but this is a major forum feature, one that just about every other forum software has

On the side of those that do: SMF, MyBB, XenForo, Woltlab, MiniBB, vBulletin, Discuz!

Those that don't (and mostly use the timestamp as a link to the post): phpBB (as per phpbb.com), Vanilla Forums (as per open.vanillaforums.com), NodeBB, IPS

Those that do something else: Discourse (has the timeline sidebar, doesn't show actual post numbers on posts), Flarum (as Discourse), UBB.Threads (uses global post ID rather than reply #1)

I of course don't have test installs of all of these so can't verify if the ones that don't offer it can be configured/customised, and so went off their official sites. But I'm really not sure it's as 'every forum software' - there is an increasing trend *away* from it.

That's actually a great reason to stuff it with as many features as possible so that it caters for the needs of the widest selection of customers possible. Quality code will avoid many bugs and there's always patches at a later date when bugs are found, as happens anyway.

Except that this simply isn't true in any universe. And then on top of that you get hassled by people who feel that 'this is bloat' and complain that you have too many features and it's too hard to configure anything or do anything.
 

FTL

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Is that why there are multiple (different) implementations of the solution that have their own pros and cons? For example, vB of old had a different solution to how everyone else does it, which would incidently solve DanielF's issue where the numbers would be kept consistent even if things were deleted, by storing the post number in the post. But no-one else does that.

In addition this also reflects a difference of logic in the world; SMF doesn't keep deleted posts in thread so that drama changes the dynamics of how this plays out for moderators and admins.

Well, all IPS have to do is implement post numbers the way they did it, to minimise the development workload, it doesn't matter how others do it. I know that other forums have their own logic. I really like the way that XF does it.

On the side of those that do: SMF, MyBB, XenForo, Woltlab, MiniBB, vBulletin, Discuz!

Those that don't (and mostly use the timestamp as a link to the post): phpBB (as per phpbb.com), Vanilla Forums (as per open.vanillaforums.com), NodeBB, IPS

Those that do something else: Discourse (has the timeline sidebar, doesn't show actual post numbers on posts), Flarum (as Discourse), UBB.Threads (uses global post ID rather than reply #1)

I of course don't have test installs of all of these so can't verify if the ones that don't offer it can be configured/customised, and so went off their official sites. But I'm really not sure it's as 'every forum software' - there is an increasing trend *away* from it.
Hmmm... I thought it was more than that which have post numbers. I'm not happy with the trend away from them either and I'd be especially ticked off if XF stopped them.

Except that this simply isn't true in any universe. And then on top of that you get hassled by people who feel that 'this is bloat' and complain that you have too many features and it's too hard to configure anything or do anything.
Oh, I dunno about that. If it was, companies would just make a basic product and leave it at that. But that of course would be very restrictive for the end user and then the competition would one-up them with demanded features. Sure, you're gonna get the usual haters whom one can never please, so it's not worth trying to please them, not too much effort, anyway. They'd literally complain about basic software being too, well, basic, the company listens and adds lots of useful features at which point those same people complain that it's bloated. One can't win. You know they exist, they're on forums all over the internet, always bitching about something and making negative comments.
 

DarthVader

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My point is that my entire day job is taken up by people like you who believe the hype and then find it has bitten them *so* hard when they discover what it costs to actually untangle the mess they have gotten themselves into. Often more expensive than if they'd gotten someone to build it properly in the first place.
Once again, what's your point? Before assuming what type of "people" I am, know that I'm very comfortable in many environments, and I probably wouldn't hire someone like yourself (I can do it myself).

Im trying to understand what your actual point is... You're just beating around the bush... I had said that WordPress has a vibrant development environment and many plugins. And I believe you argued against that, at which point I noted from a customer standpoint that it's better to have the options than not to have them. You then try to take it to the next level with soft insults of "people like you" - assuming im a person like your other customers.

What would "people like me" hire you for? To install and uninstall plugins?
 

Pete

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Just the point I was trying to make is that a huge plug-in ecosystem is not a wonderful magical place because the amount of plugins that aren’t really compatible with each other is staggering. i don’t get hired to install plugins, I get hired by people who aren’t really technical who’ve bought into the hype of how wonderful the ecosystem is, and suddenly discover that things don’t work nicely together despite the promises.

I’m the guy who gets called with “help my Wordpress has 200 plugins and it’s really slow.” Or “we have 50 plugins but they don’t all work together.”

There is no shortage of work for me from people who believe the massive plug-in ecosystem is a good thing and then get in over their head. Which so far is 100% of our customers, if they could do it themselves they probably would, but they have better things to be spending their time on.
 

FTL

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No, it is even worse. The cheapest plan does not include full Pages, except for some basic functions. The functionality is significantly cut compared to self-hosted license.
Are you sure about that? Their product pages indicate the full product is available.
 

Pete

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That's not good, $1068 a year and not fully functional?
Nope, you get “Page Builder Basics”, which is custom pages, and the customisable blocks that IPS provides. But not the database builder feature which I’ve always regarded as the reason to have Pages.

To be fair the product selector doesn’t hide this - second tier clearly says “Page Builder Full Access” with the extra feature being “Database driven system for FAQ, blogs, and more” vs the basics in the first tier.

That said, the first tier gives you everything else in the suite up front - forum, gallery, commerce, blogs etc.

The second tier is full Pages plus the ability to add plugins from the marketplace, API access, more storage, choice of where the data is (EU or US) and more storage.

Honestly I can’t imagine many businesses in the EU-area being too keen on that bottom tier if only for data privacy laws…
 
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For me @ $850 US $1096 CA (X12) for self hosting, I'd get the whole functionality at a less expensive rate.
 
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Pete

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Does that come with 1.75TB of storage? (I forget if you can wire up S3 storage yourself in IPS, if you can that would be cheaper)

Bear in mind that $850 is only the first six months, renewal is $150 for the second six months. That still brings you to $1k as your year 1 licence cost and you can certainly find competitive hosting for $788 for year 1 hosting.

Of course, the numbers change dramatically for year 2 where the licence cost to you is $300 for the year leaving your budget wiiiiiiiiiiide open for hosting.

Seriously, if you’re going to be ploughing this much money in, you want to be looking at 3 years costings not just up front or year 1 pricing.

The key thing I have to add, we’re all looking at this from the perspective of people who are prepared to get dirty with the install/hosting. I certainly know institutions that will pay a third party to do that for them because it’s not worth their time having someone take time out of their day to deal with it/hire someone with the skills to deal with it.

If you’re a hobbyist you’ll make do, if you’re a business this is a different equation.
 
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Both hobbyist and business. I've been hosting 12 XF for the past 10 years. But waiting to see what 2.3 offers or I might bite the bullet before then.
 

FTL

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Both hobbyist and business. I've been hosting 12 XF for the past 10 years. But waiting to see what 2.3 offers or I might bite the bullet before then.
Sorry, don't quite understand. Are you thinking of going Invision?

And 12 sites, that's so many logins to keep track of! 😲 That's each XF, server, database and maybe others. You must be superhuman. :p
 
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Sorry, don't quite understand. Are you thinking of going Invision?
I've been on the fence for the past year.
And 12 sites, that's so many logins to keep track of! 😲 That's each XF, server, database and maybe others. You must be superhuman. :p
Not really, they are all related to our riding club with chapters around the world, and they are managed by the presidents of each chapter.
 
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Pete

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If you have that many sites and not using some kind of a password manager, sorry but you are doing it wrong.

As for being on the fence... I wouldn't move off XF if it's currently meeting your needs - platform move of an established setup should not be taken lightly (in any direction).

If it's not meeting your needs, I'm not necessarily sure jumping to IPS will. But I'm certain you can do it cheaper than the hosted plan on IPS, especially since the odds are you probably won't want all the components of the suite.
 
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