Having members with neuro-difficulties - how do you know and what do you do?

[Lisa]

Relating to this thread, which I personally thought had become an interesting discussion until it was closed.. .but we won't get into my thoughts on that in case I get disciplined..... I might like it a little too much and then things would go rapidly downhill and no one needs that.....

https://theadminzone.com/threads/wh...jects-that-some-forums-seem-cool-with.150004/

As admins/moderators, dealing with "problem members" is a daily chore that most of us, I'm sure, would prefer not to have to do. But, have you ever asked yourself whether the way someone is behaving is actually because they're trolling, breaking the rules on purpose or simply don't understand what they're doing is wrong/irritating/not appropriate for your particular site?

Do you take the time to find out whether a member is a trouble maker or someone with neuro-difficulties (Aspergers, ASD, etc)?

Should admins take a bit more responsibility in finding out about their members or is it a case of "break my rules, you're done. I don't care whether you don't actually understand what you're doing wrong?"

 

[Steve]

Do you take the time to find out whether a member is a trouble maker or someone with neuro-difficulties (Aspergers, ASD, etc)?

The issue is recognizing when to investigate the behaviour further. I think most don't give it a second thought and deal with all users at the same level as a lot of people believe their views are right and all others are wrong. I for one should be more open about users that act out (I'm married to a mental health therapist ) as there are many signs to many different mental health issues.

 

[Anton Chigurh]

Well. You can't just assume there's such an issue and asking could well be taken as an insult. But what we can do is keep in mind it's a possible part of any persistent issue you're having. That's the key, the persistence. Can't assume the reason for it but can be patient and try to get your message through without punitive action being a top 5 go-to.

IMO too many admins and mod staff are too ban happy overall. Too authoritarian and punitive.

 

[we_are_borg]

As admins/moderators, dealing with "problem members" is a daily chore that most of us, I'm sure, would prefer not to have to do. But, have you ever asked yourself whether the way someone is behaving is actually because they're trolling, breaking the rules on purpose or simply don't understand what they're doing is wrong/irritating/not appropriate for your particular site?

Do you take the time to find out whether a member is a trouble maker or someone with neuro-difficulties (Aspergers, ASD, etc)?

If we need to do this with everyone i would not have a life at all, where do you draw the line. Should we before we ban or give a warning ask for there neuro state. We spam clean a lot of users daily what if we ban some one that has something in the spectrum, we just ban and we do not ask these questions. It seems harsh but it is reality. Also asking about someone neuro-difficulties is medical info and to be blunt its not something we should ask or we should know. We moderate and ban on rules and what we interpret of those rules we try to correct people by issuing warnings or temp bans and if that does not help remove that person. We treat all people the same as it should be if where going to say x has more room to do something wrong others want that same privilege. If i know someone has a disorder i try to keep it in mind but in the end you still need to keep the order, i don’t mind explaining but i can not act because of it, we need to treat people the same.

I also know a girl with Angelman like syndrome even she knows when told what is and is not allowed.

 

[zappaDPJ]

For reference I did reopen the original topic referred to in the op.

 

[Lisa]

we need to threat people the same.

I'm hoping that should say treat not threat - you're wrong, regardless... we neither need to threaten people nor should be we treat everyone the same way as everyone is different. We should aim for consistency in moderation techniques, but we should also be aware that not everything is black and white and there are times when a little effort is called for.

 

[Maddox]

We live in a different age and time where understanding issues that were once thought of as just troublesome and bad behaviour are recognised as a dysfunction that the sufferer is not always aware of, or even understands that their behaviour does not conform to the norm as others perceive it to be.

Discovering this from the written word is much more difficult than actually having a face to face conversation with a person, where body language can be influential in discerning an issue. The written word is often perceived as cold because of that lack of visual acuity and this is where people can draw the wrong conclusion as to the intent behind the words.

I don't believe that asking someone who is being troublesome, 'do you have a neuro or mental health issue' would be useful or even desirable. People often suffer from disorders that they are unaware of themselves, so attempting to draw a conclusion from what is written is not really feasible in the first instance. It doesn't help when other members fail to stop and think that perhaps a person does have issues, they often just bowl right on in there and start denigrating someone which just exacerbates a situation.

We all need to exercise a little patience and 'ask' someone to further elucidate what they are saying so as to be clear as to their intent. Assumptions can lead to the wrong conclusions and someone who has something of value to add can easily be dumped off the edge of a cliff because of a lack of understanding, patience and compassion.

 

[Lisa]

We all need to exercise a little patience and 'ask' someone to further elucidate what they are saying so as to be clear as to their intent. Assumptions can lead to the wrong conclusions and someone who has something of value to add can easily be dumped off the edge of a cliff because of a lack of understanding, patience and compassion.

Exactly this.

 

[we_are_borg]

I'm hoping that should say treat not threat - you're wrong, regardless... we neither need to threaten people nor should be we treat everyone the same way as everyone is different. We should aim for consistency in moderation techniques, but we should also be aware that not everything is black and white and there are times when a little effort is called for.

It should have been treat, threat is very bad in this case. You can not be consistent if you not treat everyone the same way. Also this is text only there is no interaction where you can see body language, but you have another major issue. What if person X said i have Aspergers or autism or fill something in how would i know he/she is speaking the truth (i am not saying that anyone here is lying) and second how would i know what he/she can handle. As you said no case is the same what works for A may not work for B.

If you do not treat the people the same way people get upset. So too be consistent you’ll need too treat everyone the same way. Meaning that the person if you know what neuro he/she has you can take more time to explain but the end result needs to be the same else you are putting one in front of the other.

 

[Lisa]

It should have been treat, threat is very bad in this case. You can not be consistent if you not treat everyone the same way. Also this is text only there is no interaction where you can see body language, but you have another major issue. What if person X said i have Aspergers or autism or fill something in how would i know he/she is speaking the truth (i am not saying that anyone here is lying) and second how would i know what he/she can handle. As you said no case is the same what works for A may not work for B.

If you do not treat the people the same way people get upset. So too be consistent you’ll need too treat everyone the same way. Meaning that the person if you know what neuro he/she has you can take more time to explain but the end result needs to be the same else you are putting one in front of the other.

You're contradicting yourself.

You can't agree "no case works the same and what works for one won't work for another" and then say you have to treat everyone the same way.

 

[cornnfedd]

While I like the idea of helping people the fact of the matter is if people misbehave then they should cop the consequences of their actions. Its not up to us as forum admins to try and diagnose why our members are behaving the way they are. I would assume firstly that nobody would have the time, plus we are not educated enough to give advice and actually work out what the issue really is. Now Im not saying to not help someone if they are crying out for help, but you just need to treat everyone the same, as soon as you play favorites as an admin it can be a quick end to the forum in my experience once the rot sets in.

 

[we_are_borg]

You're contradicting yourself.

You can't agree "no case works the same and what works for one won't work for another" and then say you have to treat everyone the same way.

No i am not contradicting myself for example two children (both are siblings) one with autism other not. Both steal first time from a store both will get a lecture that its not okay too take stuff without paying. But it continues both do it again while you need too explain more to the child with autism in the end you’ll need to punish them, if you do not the normal child is put behind and the one with autism can make a connection that he/she is protected from punishment (it would not matter if he/she knows its because of the autism). You toke the long route for one and not for the other one but end result needs to be the same for both. That is the same i did in the other topic i asked with the home and property if he understood that he said yes so i expanded on that with the forum if he did not understand that i would have needed to explain more. But the end result after he understands must be the same else it would be not consistent.

 

[Lisa]

While I like the idea of helping people the fact of the matter is if people misbehave then they should cop the consequences of their actions. Its not up to us as forum admins to try and diagnose why our members are behaving the way they are. I would assume firstly that nobody would have the time, plus we are not educated enough to give advice and actually work out what the issue really is. Now Im not saying to not help someone if they are crying out for help, but you just need to treat everyone the same, as soon as you play favorites as an admin it can be a quick end to the forum in my experience once the rot sets in.

It's not really about playing favourites, nor ignoring what someone is doing. It's about looking at a situation and asking yourself is it happening because the member simply wants to do it or because the member needs a little more direction on what is okay and what isn't. A way of discerning is to look at a member's posts as a whole.

An example that has nothing to do with a neuro-diagnosis would be someone posting without using punctuation or grammar, barely making any sense to the point where you wonder if you need to hire a translator just to figure out what they're trying to say, and having an overall aggressive attitude to their posts.

Do you immediately dismiss them as simply rude, obnoxious and possibly lazy, or look at their other posts and possibly consider English might not be their first language and make allowances?

If the latter is your answer, then why can't that be done in other situations, too?

 

[Lisa]

No i am not contradicting myself for example two children (both are siblings) one with autism other not. Both steal first time from a store both will get a lecture that its not okay too take stuff without paying. But it continues both do it again while you need too explain more to the child with autism in the end you’ll need to punish them, if you do not the normal child is put behind and the one with autism can make a connection that he/she is protected from punishment (it would not matter if he/she knows its because of the autism). You toke the long route for one and not for the other one but end result needs to be the same for both. That is the same i did in the other topic i asked with the home and property if he understood that he said yes so i expanded on that with the forum if he did not understand that i would have needed to explain more. But the end result after he understands must be the same else it would be not consistent.

Actually you did contradict yourself. What you described above, while not necessarily a workable way of doing it, is exactly what I proposed - taking time to figure out if they need further information to be able to function within your forum - which you argued would take up far too much of your valuable time.

 

[we_are_borg]

I asked because i knew that Aspergers have sometimes difficulty understanding, but the average joe that is on a forum would he/she understand. You can’t ask everyone to make clear what disability he/she has before taking action on a forum you would have a task that would take hours. You take then either long route or the short route but its the end result that needs to be the same. Also if someone says he/she has X wrong with him/here do i need to go research what that is and how to talk to them. Maybe a better question when you where a TAZ admin before you temp ban, banned or gave a warning did you always asked if they understood or had a neuro something?

 

[Maddox]

We don't treat people the same way in real life. There are some people who you warm to and enjoy being around, whereas others may give you a chill and you will wish to avoid them. There are people in your life that you will favour above others because of the love and affection that you hold towards them. There are people who you work with and they can be very agreeable and work well with others, then there are others who you know would step on you to get ahead so you tend to treat them with a degree of skepticism and wariness.

So you can't treat everyone the same in any any environment because everyone is not the same. Finding out about people through the written word is difficult at first until you can experience them enough to be able to read between the lines and come to an educated conclusion as to whether this is someone you can relate to and understand. So, until you can find out more about a person you can't make a valid determination as to whether that person is someone to be liked or reviled. In other words if you treat everyone the same, you end up either liking everyone or despising everyone; it's a case of black and white with no room for the grey areas. This doesn't mean you have to show favouritism to anyone, just treat them as an individual and understand that not everyone is the same.

As for administering a forum and someone is causing waves, rather that wade in with the big stick find out (or at least try to find out) why that person is causing waves and then decide what to do, not everything is black and white and if you treat everyone the same then it is a case of black or white whichever you prefer.

 

[Lisa]

As for administering a forum and someone is causing waves, rather that wade in with the big stick find out (or at least try to find out) why that person is causing waves and then decide what to do, not everything is black and white and if you treat everyone the same then it is a case of black or white whichever you prefer.

Absolutely.

Someone could come in and go on the attack - for all you know their dog died that morning and they're lashing out. Maybe they're on the spectrum and can't put across what they want without sounding like they're looking for a fight. Maybe they're just an asshole. You won't know until you take the time to research.

We're not robots - all with the same programming. People react to things in different ways, people read different tones in something on a page. People don't even view the use of emoticons the same way. I could put a wink at the end of a sentence - 8 out of 10 people might see it for me showing a lighthearted amusement... 2 people might see it as sarcastic. Assuming everyone will be the same is naive and setting yourself up for failure.

 

[Alpha1]

Mostly because its the example that led to this thread.

To answer your question: I think there are several factors:
- can the member understand the rules?
- can the member follow rules at all?
- does the member need additional guidance or mentoring?
- Is the member sensitive to guidance or mentoring?

If its feasible then I like it a lot to try and help the member to adjust their behavior to a productive mode within the limits of the rules. Intent and compassion are important imo. But there is also a large group that is just too difficult to deal with. As staff you can only do so much. The member still has their responsibility to seek out websites were they fit in.

 

[Lisa]

As staff you can only do so much.

Absolutely - but you try, as you've just said yourself.

 

[Lisa]

Mostly because its the example that led to this thread.

And the thread evolved - as they have a habit of doing. Is it really fair to turn the focus on one member in a discussion about neuro-disorders as a whole?