Are you excited for IPB 4.5?

Are you excited for IPB 4.5?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 33 54.1%
  • No :(

    Votes: 4 6.6%
  • I still prefer another forum software

    Votes: 18 29.5%
  • I'm considering switching to IPB

    Votes: 4 6.6%
  • Other (state in the comments)

    Votes: 2 3.3%

  • Total voters
    61

Matt M

Director Development at Invision Community
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
294
Wouldn't it be better to satisfy both groups? One reason vBulletin was that great because of their enormous ressource pool at vbulletin.org

vBulletin.org was the perfect resource at the right time. Back in the 2000s most people ran their own servers, could figure out basic code edits and be ready to debug and problem solve.

I would say that the majority of people using our product do not have these skills, or do not have the time to use them on third party resources. They want a simple quick way to install extra functionality and our new marketplace offers that.
 

we_are_borg

Administrator
Joined
Jan 25, 2011
Messages
5,537
vbulletin.org was needed in that time it was a good resource. But like you say Matt M now people want it fast and mostley in a simple manner and technology is allowing it to make it so.
So why would you not assist the users with this its a no brainer. IPS could improve the marketplace with one more feature, a page where you can see what you once installed but removed/installed and what you have bought on marketplace. I run the site we made with IPS but i do not buy add-ons the other admin does i have access by making me a co-admin on the invision website but i cant see what is bought on the marketplace but i need to install it.
 

Chemical

Aspirant
Joined
Feb 3, 2020
Messages
10
I would say that the majority of people using our product do not have these skills, or do not have the time to use them on third party resources

The problem with this is that if true, the same folks probably aren't running a dev server.

They want a simple quick way to install extra functionality and our new marketplace offers that.

Consequently you invite the same folks to install apps and plugins of varying quality directly onto a live server, given my point above.

Whilst applauding your efforts in this area, I do believe some Invision Community apps and plugins need an additional layer of oversight/scrutiny. Perhaps introduce a Pro level where qualifying apps/plugins, available at a $premium, can be entered into a quality assurance program where functionality is properly tested and basic behaviour warranted. I appreciate that some testing currently takes place, but in some cases it's not catching fundamental errors which become apparent within a minute or two of detailed testing.

These Pro level apps could also be guaranteed to be available at time of new release launches, saving the current situation whereby all but the most basic installs have to wait for apps and plugins to be updated to current version.
 

Joel R

Fan
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Messages
823
IPS could improve the marketplace with one more feature, a page where you can see what you once installed but removed/installed and what you have bought on marketplace. I run the site we made with IPS but i do not buy add-ons the other admin does i have access by making me a co-admin on the invision website but i cant see what is bought on the marketplace but i need to install it.
Can you see the page 'Manage Purchases' when you go to the Marketplace? It's exactly what you want. You can renew, manage the purchase, go to the file, status, etc. If you don't, you should send in a support ticket requesting access (or at least for this functionality to be added to your account type).


1598549376923.png


One thing I'd like to point out is that a lot of users familiar with multiple ecosystems think the IPS Marketplace is a listing directory like other ecosystems, so they're "the same." The front-end may look the same. But there's a whole back-end system of the IPS Marketplace of both policies and technology dedicated to the delivery, billing, and management of IPS third-party resources. It's been built-up over the years, and takes care of everything from smoothly issuing refunds to delisting offending developers. It's a hidden value of the license that we in the IPS world take for granted.
 

we_are_borg

Administrator
Joined
Jan 25, 2011
Messages
5,537
Yes i can but i’m under my own account so i cant see the purchase made by the main account admin. It would be nice to have an option for that allow co-admins to see purchase made by main account.
 

mysiteguy

Migration Expert
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Messages
3,111
I wrote, it was.

I think she missed your point completely in her quest to downplay any type of ecosystem/software that isn't IPS.

There's no reason why a forum company can't offer both: integrated addon install and the ability to install manually, along with an open ecosystem.

Invision claimed here they did it based on feedback, and I find that hard to believe. I bet there's not a single customer who's told them they want to be locked out of any addon options other than those Invision forces, wanted licenses to be stricter, etc.

Historically, no matter how great Invision has been they have been incrementally tightening up in a money grab to nickle and dime users, and now ... add on vendors. Stricter licenses, the inability to redownload versions you paid for unless you pony up to stay currently licensed, restricting license resales (which is completely illegal in many countries), now working towards further closing up the addon market, etc.

I think it's a wonderful product so far as features go but the company is run by control freaks.
 

ibaker

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
174
I think it's a wonderful product so far as features go but the company is run by control freaks.
I and many others are now starting to see how correct you are...they are their own worse enemy.

Invision claimed here they did it based on feedback, and I find that hard to believe. I bet there's not a single customer who's told them they want to be locked out of any addon options other than those Invision forces, wanted licenses to be stricter, etc.
And, it is pretty bad business ethics to promote blatant lies to their customers
 

mysiteguy

Migration Expert
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Messages
3,111
I and many others are now starting to see how correct you are...they are their own worse enemy.


And, it is pretty bad business ethics to promote blatant lies to their customers

A couple of years ago IIRC after hearing about customer service improvements I gave them another try and was very pleasantly surprised. Unfortunately, since then I've seen more bad policies implemented. I've wanted to recommend them based on the product, but it's hard when as a customer I have the feeling we're something to be exploited rather than served.
 

Matt M

Director Development at Invision Community
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
294
And, it is pretty bad business ethics to promote blatant lies to their customers

What lies? The fact that we did market research, listened to the feedback of our customers and made a decision, but it's not one you support therefore your conclusion is that I'm lying about that? 🤔

We have a very broad range of customers, most of whom are not on this community. :)
 

ibaker

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
174
It was stated that it came from "Feedback" now you say "market research" so show us what and where it came from, sorry I don't trust a word from greedy corporates as IPS is now demonstrating...it is easy to say that it was done which in fact could be just another lie.

There is the perfect example in that IPS stated the new marketplace restrictions was done by consulting the developers so they went ahead and did it but they did not consult their customers...you know the people that keep them in business.
 
Last edited:

Matt M

Director Development at Invision Community
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
294
It was stated that it came from "Feedback" now you say "market research" so show us what and where it came from, sorry I don't trust a word from greedy corporates as IPS is now demonstrating...it is easy to say that it was done which in fact could be just another lie

Feedback and market research are interchangeable terms in my mind. I guess if you want to split hairs, feedback is passive (people come to us and tell us what they think) and market research is proactive (we seek out opinions).

Either way, our marketplace authors have access to a forum called "Contributor Chat" where they have a direct line to us. We posted about new guidelines in 2019, the marketplace in 4.5 in April 2020 and again in June 2020. There are around 9 pages of discussions across these topics.

Elsewhere, we spoke to our small feedback group in our Slack channel. These customers have access to our entire team 24/7 and they let us know their thoughts, and we sometimes discuss ideas with them. We also speak to our enterprise customers on their monthly calls and discuss their feedback and thoughts on our platform and how to improve it.

Then of course there's the public feedback forum on our site.

If you think that our aim with bringing the marketplace inside our Admin CP is to profit, you'll be mistaken. Our aim is to break even. As Joel has stated, we do not offer a passive resource directory, we take payments on behalf of the author (Stripe takes a percentage of that transaction), we host and deliver the files to the customer (hosting and bandwidth costs) and deal with piracy (support time) and manage chargebacks (these can cost us $20 a time - often over a $5 sale which we do not reclaim from the author). It's a lot of work, and we are making a loss currently but we see the value in raising up our developer community to make them more visible in the Admin CP.
 

ibaker

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
174
I think the comments both here and in the IPS forums indicate a segment of customers that you completely ignored consulting with. There was no consultation in your own blogs or anywhere on the IPS site that you were thinking about the huge restrictions you were going to place on your general customers for them to comment. There is nothing worse than bias feedback and market research...as they say, there are lies, damned lies and statistics

Nothing you have said gives any reasoning why you have restricted customers from access to file download of their purchased addons for testing and review prior to installation
 

Matt M

Director Development at Invision Community
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
294
I find your use of language fascinating. We have an opportunity to have an open discussion but you seem more keen on forcing my narrative through your own prejudgements to embolden your reasoning.

This makes it impossible to convey our reasoning to you because you are not really interested. And that's fine of course. :)
 

ibaker

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
174
That's a bit of a cop out Matt. Do you also realise that you are removing the ability of a person to use an addon for the duration they purchased it for. For example you purchase an addon that is developed for and licensed for IPS vx.x. You remove the addon or even dont install it till you may need it. Your IPS license expires and you decide not to renew it till say the next update. You can't install that addon and use it, an addon that you payed good money for are licensed to use it unless you pay IPS an extra $100+ to renew license earlier than you wanted. Now if that is not corporate greed and denying your customers what otherwise they would have been allowed to do I dont know what is.

There is a lesson here to all current and potential future IPS customers.
 

Matt M

Director Development at Invision Community
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
294
"There is a lesson here to all current and potential future IPS customers."

Come and develop on our platform as we'll protect you from the worst of chargebacks, ensure you don't need to maintain your own payment systems and websites. We'll do our best to reduce piracy for you, offer you dev guides, Slack channels and forums where you can talk to all our developers and we'll even feature your work in every Admin CP and make it super simple to install on your behalf. :)
 

ibaker

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
174
A car yard full of cars and lots of mechanics standing around but no customers because they cost much more to maintain compared to the car yard next door with cheaper to maintain cars
 
Last edited:

tony45

Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
142
A car yard full of cars and lots of mechanics standing around but no customers because they cost much more to maintain compared to the car yard next door with cheaper to maintain cars
A car yard full of cars and lots of mechanics standing around but no customers because they cost much more to maintain compared to the car yard next door with cheaper to maintain cars

Well, I'm renewing my license next month. Forum + pages: $40 per 6 months. Clubs for free. Invision is not so expensive as you are saying, and it now even includes a mobile app.
You don't like invision, that's OK. But stop the bs.
 

we_are_borg

Administrator
Joined
Jan 25, 2011
Messages
5,537
Well, I'm renewing my license next month. Forum + pages: $40 per 6 months. Clubs for free. Invision is not so expensive as you are saying, and it now even includes a mobile app.

If you compare Xenforo forum vs IPS forum its 55 vs 50 dollars a year so for forums there almost the same. If you want everything the same so all functionality then IPS is a little cheaper because you need to get external add-ons with Xenforo. People think Xenforo is cheaper because of the one year renewal vs 6 months but if you do it x2 you know a year and not much difference.
 

haqzore

Devotee
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
2,438
I think the comments both here and in the IPS forums indicate a segment of customers that you completely ignored consulting with. There was no consultation in your own blogs or anywhere on the IPS site that you were thinking about the huge restrictions you were going to place on your general customers for them to comment. There is nothing worse than bias feedback and market research...as they say, there are lies, damned lies and statistics

Nothing you have said gives any reasoning why you have restricted customers from access to file download of their purchased addons for testing and review prior to installation

It's quite clear your mind won't be changed, but I hope you realize nobody is trying to do that (from what I see).

Of course there will be customers unhappy about this. There are customers unhappy about every decision any developer will ever make.

In my opinion, if you look at the IPS road map from the last few years, the things Matt M says make sense & align with their strategy. As a customer, I get the impression IPS looks much farther ahead in their planning than their competitors.

TAZ is much like any feedback group or support channel. We're a vocal minority of the broader population. We might represent a segment of it, but we certainly don't represent the whole of it. It's a safe assumption TAZ members skew toward the "power user" side - as they're actively seeking new channels of support/feedback/ideas.

And Matt M has indeed given reason for the change. Some seem a bit blinded by dissatisfaction at the moment, which is normal.

A car yard full of cars and lots of mechanics standing around but no customers because they cost much more to maintain compared to the car yard next door with cheaper to maintain cars

Possibly. Neither you or I know. But the rate at which IPS has expanded both their product offering, and the team that supports it over the years points toward a customer base that is steady at least, possibly even expanding.



My normal disclaimer: I have 2 live sites. One XF, one IPS. My XF site is more active by a good margin.
 
Top