Are forums dying?

[The Sandman]

I have changed the emphasis of my forum to provide info. traffic is up; advertising sales are going well (as I providing eyeballs for the adverts), but the contributions, discussion and debates from users is way down.

How is this sustainable? Where do the contributions, discussions, and debates come from?

 

[cbp]

How is this sustainable? Where do the contributions, discussions, and debates come from?

I in a health professional niche. We always started new threads with, for eg abstracts of new research that was just published --> often that lead to discussion and debate.
The forum has developed a reputation in the profession of being "first" or "early" with all the news and research as its published - people are still coming to the site to read and see that --. they just not discussing and debating it as much as in the past.

I have had to up the ante in being first to bring the news and new research and publications to the attention of users. They can't get what we offer anywhere else, so the forum is seen as valuable in that light.

I also carefully curate threads with lots of news and new research on specific topics (1000's of them), so users know if the want the latest on one of those topics, they only need to check the thread (there will still be some comments from users on the topic). -> I actively encourage users to sign up for the 'watch thread' on the topic of their interest - they know they will get alerted immediately we add new content and they know we will be first (or very early) out with that info.

That is what I have adapted and changed as the debate/discussion went down. traffic is up though.

 

[Maddox]

As with cbp the content will be contributed solely by myself, unless others wish to contribute comments (not content). The niche I'm aiming for is limited as to content, but what content there is, for those who like it, is very good and worth revisiting many times over.

Debates and discussions are something of the past, at least for where I am aiming at they will be. Short comments are all that is required, if people desire to comment. I've tried numerous forums niches with the aim of inspiring discussion and debate and they all fell flat on their face, not because the content wasn't good or up-to-date and relevant, simply because people are not interested in sharing their thoughts, in the main.

 

[Know Your Role]

In my opinion, forums will always be relevant. Social media has most definitely had an impact on forum activity but I know there are lots people online who want to keep their personal life separate, so forums such as Reddit, or your typical forum software's will always be around.

 

[La2k16]

Give examples of recently opened forums that are doing really well, use your own database of sales if you will! It's easy to say something, less easy to prove it.

How would you define "doing well" for a new forum...someting around a year old or less? Just wondering your opinion because it seems hard to find first year benchmarks to go off of

 

[we_are_borg]

The biggest problem is that people want everything to stay the same, forums haven't evolved its the same concept for 16 years now. But visitors see that there is more then forums so they stay away from forums and only come back if they need something special.

 

[Maddox]

How would you define "doing well" for a new forum...someting around a year old or less? Just wondering your opinion because it seems hard to find first year benchmarks to go off of

Doing well means that they have members who are regularly active and registrations are reasonably upbeat - that is more than half a dozen a month. New means just that, something just up an running for a few months and say up to a year, to give floundering forums a chance to gain some traction.

The biggest problem is that people want everything to stay the same, forums haven't evolved its the same concept for 16 years now. But visitors see that there is more then forums so they stay away from forums and only come back if they need something special.

I agree with every word - the sad thing is that there's precious little room for forums to evolve and still be a forum as we know them; they are what they are. As I mentioned either here or in another thread (so many lol) you can give a forum a new coat and gloss it up, tweak the engine a bit to make things run smoother, but outside of that we would be looking at the next evolution beyond forums - we already have that in SM which is why it's so popular; the next best thing as it were. Everything has a lifespan and I believe forums are in their twilight years. I give them another ten years before they disappear altogether, unless by some miracle there is a resurgence of interest for them; sometimes things do go full circle and come back into fashion. In ten years time even SM may be on its way out to make way for whatever comes next - who knows?

 

[eva2000]

unless by some miracle there is a resurgence of interest for them; sometimes things do go full circle and come back into fashion. In ten years time even SM may be on its way out to make way for whatever comes next - who knows?

My gut says forum software will surge back in fashion Just not sure there will be as many site/forum admins around with the know how + to be motivated enough to put in the required work for them.

 

[Maddox]

eva2000 I hope and pray that your gut is right lol.

 

[sbjsbj]

Forums can get to the next evolution and be popular again and get revived from the deads. I am not doubting it a second.

The problem is, that the devs of forums are not making the next steps. They just rely on what worked so far, and not trying to focus what forums make valuable.

I repeated this multiple times, want to do it again.

Forums can be basically Wikipedia with interaction. That is what makes forums valuable.

Wikipedia can only offer passively information, it just stores information. No interaction.

Social Media doesn't store information at all, it just has a lifespan of 3 seconds. It captures that one moment and thats it. It is basically only interaction.

Forums can store information AND have interaction.

When my pc has a virus, no Social Media place will be able to help me out. Nor does Wikipedia. But a structured good forum with members can help me out. There I can find information I need provided by itself and the people there.

But forums are horrible places for information storing. The search is extremely bad. I can never find something I am looking for.
The threaded system is by far not sufficient to store information. There needs to be other form of storage built-in.

And on top of that all of the information storage must be useable by smartphones.

Anybody know a forum software like that? Me neither.

When was the last time you guys visited a forum, went to a forum-node, used the pagination, and skipped to page 174?
Never? Right.
Why would we? So basically all the threads in first page list will get noticed (the recent ones), and have a lifespan of how long other threads make that threads go to next pages. This system is doomed. Basically it is like Twitter. On Twitter you write something, it lasts for some minutes, until you write other Tweets. Nobody cares about your Tweets from 3 days ago, they all are gone. Useless. Like all those threads we have in forums even though they can have unique valuable information.

But Twitter can allow itself to be like that, cause it is built on that premise of having a short lifespan.

But forums cant have that. Forums need good mechanics for information storage. So they can be visited again, found again, used again. Like Wikipedia.
But Wikipedia doesn't have user interaction. Forums have!!! But nobody is exploiting this cause forums don't have information storage.

I am so sad about this situation. I put all my hopes and dreams onto XF 2.x. I am giving forums 2-3 more years as chance. But after that, I am lost. I am looking for alternatives but nothing is fulfilling.

 

[we_are_borg]

...


I agree with every word - the sad thing is that there's precious little room for forums to evolve and still be a forum as we know them; they are what they are. As I mentioned either here or in another thread (so many lol) you can give a forum a new coat and gloss it up, tweak the engine a bit to make things run smoother, but outside of that we would be looking at the next evolution beyond forums - we already have that in SM which is why it's so popular; the next best thing as it were. Everything has a lifespan and I believe forums are in their twilight years. I give them another ten years before they disappear altogether, unless by some miracle there is a resurgence of interest for them; sometimes things do go full circle and come back into fashion. In ten years time even SM may be on its way out to make way for whatever comes next - who knows?

The problem is the companies and developers look at vBulletin they wanted to evolve the made the CMS, Social groups, blogs and forum but they never acted on that. The CMS and Social Groups needed much TLC from the developers but got almost non. Same story is true with IPB while the package has everything like CMS, Downloads, Gallery, Blogs, Shop and Forum it feels not complete not finished or polished. Xenforo while they have only Forums, Resource Manager and Gallery it feels dated after all this time, it's never brought to the next level its all the same again new version but alike. I can understand that some companies do not want to bring out to much like Xenforo, but leave it to add-on developers, BUT and its a big BUT make sure the developers have the tools they need to make add-on's or even styles. This also means that developers that make for example portal or CMS systems have access to new nightly builds or alpha builds so they know what is coming so they can prepare. I never heard that there is communication between the companies or add-on or style developers. This is i think the biggest issue atm communication between those parties. Because forums are not evolving with the internet but standing still is killing them. Take Facebook many people on it but reading back a year in the past is hard on a forum its easier to do, Facebook you see more different topics what peaks your interest but following is harder then a forum. Not one forum maker has taken the power of Facebook inside his script and expanded upon that what a forum could do. Companies need to rethink to attract more costumers for themselves and for the people that uses there products.

I take in this example Xenforo because i uses their products. What they need is some one that looks for trends, new sources what people want, how they want it etc etc. What do addon and style developers want what tools do they need to bring it in to the next level. Give add-on and style developers a line to the developers of the software so they can ask for feature or improvements to bring there stuff to the next level.

 

[John128]

I don't truly think forums are totally dying. I do, however, think mid sized forums are dying (the 30-100k post range forums). People just don't seem to be interested in joining specific niche forums, which allows huge mega forums to thrive due to the fact that they have a much larger audience to discuss with.

 

[Jura]

Reddit subs have more experts, obsessed, experienced, and talented people. They also get news on topics they cover faster than forums.

I don't really take part in more than a few or couple forums anymore. I want to but modern forums are weak sauce.

 

[La2k16]

Forums can get to the next evolution and be popular again and get revived from the deads. I am not doubting it a second.

The problem is, that the devs of forums are not making the next steps. They just rely on what worked so far, and not trying to focus what forums make valuable.

I repeated this multiple times, want to do it again.

Forums can be basically Wikipedia with interaction. That is what makes forums valuable.

Wikipedia can only offer passively information, it just stores information. No interaction.

Social Media doesn't store information at all, it just has a lifespan of 3 seconds. It captures that one moment and thats it. It is basically only interaction.

Forums can store information AND have interaction.

When my pc has a virus, no Social Media place will be able to help me out. Nor does Wikipedia. But a structured good forum with members can help me out. There I can find information I need provided by itself and the people there.

But forums are horrible places for information storing. The search is extremely bad. I can never find something I am looking for.
The threaded system is by far not sufficient to store information. There needs to be other form of storage built-in.

And on top of that all of the information storage must be useable by smartphones.

Anybody know a forum software like that? Me neither.

When was the last time you guys visited a forum, went to a forum-node, used the pagination, and skipped to page 174?
Never? Right.
Why would we? So basically all the threads in first page list will get noticed (the recent ones), and have a lifespan of how long other threads make that threads go to next pages. This system is doomed. Basically it is like Twitter. On Twitter you write something, it lasts for some minutes, until you write other Tweets. Nobody cares about your Tweets from 3 days ago, they all are gone. Useless. Like all those threads we have in forums even though they can have unique valuable information.

But Twitter can allow itself to be like that, cause it is built on that premise of having a short lifespan.

But forums cant have that. Forums need good mechanics for information storage. So they can be visited again, found again, used again. Like Wikipedia.
But Wikipedia doesn't have user interaction. Forums have!!! But nobody is exploiting this cause forums don't have information storage.

I am so sad about this situation. I put all my hopes and dreams onto XF 2.x. I am giving forums 2-3 more years as chance. But after that, I am lost. I am looking for alternatives but nothing is fulfilling.

Excellent post, and honestly I don't think anything is stopping anyone from creating a hybrid of this vision with current forum software. Xenforo seems to easily be able to do something like this or at least in that realm....you may have to get really creative but it could definitely be done.

Someone mentioned it earlier in here.....Admins are becoming lazier and less visionary it seems. A lot of people just want the flashiest features and something that is comparable to the Facebook App out the box but don't even utilize the software they have now to anywhere near it's full potential.

I honestly feel like anything I personally could ever need at my site could be achieved through Xenforo, and I also k now I probably will never use a third of those ideas LOL but if I absolutely had to I would find a way to make something work. I don't see to see a lot of admins with this mentality.....everyones worried about Xen 2.0 or something else besides using the existing foundations to make something new without rewriting the rulebook

 

[sbjsbj]

Excellent post, and honestly I don't think anything is stopping anyone from creating a hybrid of this vision with current forum software. Xenforo seems to easily be able to do something like this or at least in that realm....you may have to get really creative but it could definitely be done.

Thank you but I don't agree at all that XF or that any other forum software can create a hybrid of this vision at all. Of course you could let people create big addons but that is not the point, cause I don't think anybody has thousands of dollars to invest in such big things.

Forums are basically single page sites with multiple categories and forums. Thats it. Where is the information storing other than the information being saved under category/forum/thread names?

You can write a post or a thread under a forum. And it will be seen as long as it stays in the 1st page. And then? The information is gone. Buried in that thread. Everything you wrote about the model xyz coffeemachine is gone. Sure, it is existing in that thread, but unknown to the whole world. No re-visiting, no re-using, no re-reading. All of the information written in forums are wasted space and time. They can have extreme value, but yet as long as it can't be discovered, nobody will know.

But how great it would have been if there would be a mechanism, an architecture, that would allow the user to put that valuable post into an information storage system, where it can be accessed and used again easily. For example you visit my imaginary forum about coffee machines. There is a landing page. Now you select the model xyz you are interested in. And woops, any post related to this coffee machine is listed with specific weightings.
Typically in a forum you can use the search, but it just spits you all posts where that name of that machine is mentioned. It doesn't care if the post is actually about that machine, or in which way the post is related to it, it just spits you everything out where those words were mentioned.

That's why I have google for. Why should I waste my time in a forum with 100k posts if the search result can actually give the information I want? Or wouldn't it be better to search the whole internet? So anything what a forum actually can, others do much much better.

We need from devs a way of organizing the information written on forums. Other than putting threads under categories, there is no kind of organization. Ah, yeah, tags. Tags are also there? How many of you are using that half-baked thing?

This post I am writing at this very moment. Let's say it has deep information about the administration of forums. Great great insider tips about handling and building a community. Now tell me, when this thread is on page 22 after 3 months, will anybody ever see this information again? Re-visit this post again? Make a use of it again? If so, how? Convince me. How can a regular user, a new user, a veteran who all don't know about this post find this informatio?
A shop for shoes is showcasing its products. Where is the built-in methods for forums for showcasing, for storing this value?
You can be the best shoe-maker in the world, but if nobody knows you, it doesn't matter. As in that nobody will know ever that this post had good value. Cause there is no system behind this all. Anything I write at this moment is not much different then writing a tweet with 140 chars, even though now I've spent 30 minutes to write this post and used probably 1400 characters... Both have a duration of how long again? You will my post once, maybe twice and then farewell.

Someone mentioned it earlier in here.....Admins are becoming lazier and less visionary it seems. A lot of people just want the flashiest features and something that is comparable to the Facebook App out the box but don't even utilize the software they have now to anywhere near it's full potential.

And Admins are not becoming lazier, I think the opposite is the case. Because forums are dying, admins have to put more effort so their forums won't die.

Back in the day you just had to open a forum, and the visitors just "flooded" in your forum without you having to do something. You put forum categories and sections, thats it. People filled the rest by themselves. That was lazy.

Now you have to think about SEO (or you had to), have to secure your servers, buy tons of addons, advertise, integrate with Social Meida, etc.
How is that lazy?

 

[pierce]

sbjsbj I've been talking on another thread about the life span of content.

Facebook prefers fresh content. It prefers overwhelmingly content with some interaction. It mutes or shoves down unanswered or unpopular content.

So the life span of any post on fb is short.

Look at posts here, I've read threads going back years that are relevant. When moving to xenforo I read about digital points traffic and that post has been referred to many times.

It's a different world out there. And we are either going to have to wait until people decide SM is useless and they look for something better. Or somebody comes up with a change that is so simple and obvious that makes this type of content organisation brilliant.

However a lot of big organisations are betting the movement is to video. I'm not sure I'd fully agree with that

 

[La2k16]

Personally I have been just re-promoting popular posts so they show up on the front page of the portal, which I have discovered is used a lot by my members. It gives it more of a facebook feel as I can manually push the most active discussions to the front page to stimulate activity to them. I think it is working so far and as I refine the process I think the results will show even more. Because I have my portal set up to show a majority of the OP and any embedded media it really does feel more like how a facebook group is set up

 

[Yappi]

That's why I have google for. Why should I waste my time in a forum with 100k posts if the search result can actually give the information I want? Or wouldn't it be better to search the whole internet? So anything what a forum actually can, others do much much better.

And many times, Google spits out a link to the best content being on a forum. In fact, there are many times I put "forum" at the end of my search to ensure I get the best possible result. I get people on my site from searches that go back to information posted a decade ago. This is actually one of the greatest strengths of a forum, content that really never dies. I know I ended up on this forum through searches on Google MANY times over the years before finally registering.

Try searching for something that someone posted on Twitter or Facebook last year. It's tedious and usually fruitless for such a search.

 

[sbjsbj]

Facebook prefers fresh content. It prefers overwhelmingly content with some interaction. It mutes or shoves down unanswered or unpopular content.

So the life span of any post on fb is short.

Look at posts here, I've read threads going back years that are relevant. When moving to xenforo I read about digital points traffic and that post has been referred to many times.

Facebook's or any other Social Media's whole purpose is based on short life spans. They can allow themselves to be like that, cause their whole architecture is built around that. They have for a reason dedicated smartphone apps. They maximize the short lifespan content by making the architecture as user-friendly as possible.

Forum's can't keep up with that. That train is long gone.

You say you read threads going back years. How did you find those relevant stuff, can you explain? On your smartphone or desktop? Do you think it is user-friendly, when users have to dig through of years of material with this architecture? Which means visiting thread by thread a forum node to find out the relevant stuff. Or you use the search, but very likely you will miss out 90% of the relevant stuff you searched for.
Can you imagine your mom or uncle or 10 years old sister will be able to do that? Doesn't matter what kind of a forum we are talking about, obviously a female teenager won't be interested in administration of forums very likely, but say it is a forum about barbies or whatever.

I can easily find information on Wikipedia. I've never encountered a problem to find the information I was looking for on Wikipedia. I imagine people don't have problems in using Twitter, FB, Instagram, Whatsapp etc.
But even though I am using forums for over a decade now, I still can't find the stuff I am looking for, even though I know that forum has the information I wanted to find.
Forums are still as the same as the last 15 years. Back then it was ok, cause internet was new, all people used desktops, the programming side and GUI side was new. After 15 years, the whole internet evolved, the whole internet got smarter, better, faster.
Forums got faster too, but better and smarter? There is a reason why many forums still use VB 3.8.
VB 3.5 came out in 2005 I believe.

We need drastic changes.

Not only that Social Media killed the social interaction part of forums, but smartphones are now much more deadly. Those tiny screens are the natural enemies of forums. If you can't keep up with that, you are not just dead, you are history.

On top of that now we have reddit (which is a 1 big forum with thousands of categories), StackExchange, Yahoo Answers and sorts, Google and Facebook groups and Wikipedia.

The threats are too many and much bigger than us. AND better.
There is not one thing what forums at this moment can do better than any of those things.
The only daylight for forums is to figure out how to store the information the users bring with themselves, so those information can be used, shared, re-visited again. Right now all people prefer all the other medias, cause it is less time-consuming and less effort AND BETTER in fulfilling your needs, whatever they may be.

 

[sbjsbj]

And many times, Google spits out a link to the best content being on a forum. In fact, there are many times I put "forum" at the end of my search to ensure I get the best possible result. I get people on my site from searches that go back to information posted a decade ago. This is actually one of the greatest strengths of a forum, content that really never dies. I know I ended up on this forum through searches on Google MANY times over the years before finally registering.

Try searching for something that someone posted on Twitter or Facebook last year. It's tedious and usually fruitless for such a search.

Anytime I use Google and I get a result from a forum, it is mostly from 2005-2010. I never get results from a thread made in 2016, 2015, 2014 etc.
I get tons of blog results, news sites, and a lot from companies websites, yahoo answers sort of sites. But fresh forum content results?

We are actually talking about the same thing here. I agree that the strength of a forum is that the content never dies.
That is exactly the point here.
But forums don't make use of that. As you say if not 1 stumbles on that page through Google, there is no way other than that to find those stuff. (Theoretically you can start reading from post number 1 and keep reading until post number 1 000 000. Then you will encounter, but...)

And exactly it is tedious to find stuff on Twitter and Facebook. Saying the same. But they can allow themselves to be like that. They are based on short-lifespan stuff, "I ate pizza today", "oh look how great I look in this dress", "my friends tell me that I talk too much", etc. stuff. They are not supposed to be found or at least this is not the priority of Social Media.

But forums' priority, the number one, the most important one, is information. But right now the system is so bad, that you can't find anything you are looking for. You don't even have to look for something. I imagine there are thousands of rich valuable content on your site written years ago. Do your new, regular, veteran users know about them? Like actually know, which means have they read them and can access them in 2-3 seconds?
It is like the metaphor about the best shoemaker in the world. If you have never heard of him, you can't make a use of him.
Such as thousands of valuable posts are sitting in your forum right now. But nobody knows them, they are hidden in deep threads. If one doesn't land on that post through Google by chance, nobody will know about them.