Trolls vs Internet bullies

[hari]

I actually find that there are two classes of people who cause maximum trouble on forums. One is of course, the traditional "troll" who wreaks havoc by anti-social behaviour and by deliberately riling up forum members to get kicks out of it, causing havoc and bad blood in the process.

I think as admins, we need to realize that there is another group which I would term as "online bullies" or "internet bullies" who can become equally destructive in undermining communities.

These gentlemen/ladies differ from trolls in the sense that they are not anti-social, but they are an accepted and sometimes well-respected members who assume a sort of informal and unofficial leadership role. They use this position to intimidate and assert their views on newer and less established members and often push their weight around to mark territorial rights. They will generally try and behave properly, but subtly try and behave like moderators and preach about forum behaviour. They will also turn and insult people as they wish and surprisingly other forum members will turn a blind eye to them. They will usually "adopt" ownership of a single forum or a subforum of a board and hang out there frequently with their clan. (this feature is usually more common in larger forums)

These people are often the starting point of cliques because they can gather a group of yes-people around them in no time.

Beware of these people and watch out for them because they can be a lot more trouble in the long run than isolated trolls running loose.

Sometimes you just need an excellent troll to combat an established forum bully

Similarities between trolls and bullies:

1. Both trolls and bullies can cause enormous damage to a forum by their behaviour.
2. Both trolls and bullies usually have excellent communication skills using which they attack their opponents unmercifully.
3. Both trolls and bullies can be intimidating to any normal forum user.
4. Both trolls and bullies have the effect of creating bad blood.
5. Both trolls and bullies are hard to control without intervention right from the top - the forum administrator(s) or owner(s) because even moderators might find it hard to control them without support from others.

Differences

1. Trolls are usually isolated. They are generally short-lived in a forum. A person who signs up on a forum specifically to troll doesn't hang around in other parts of the forum and leaves as soon as the damage is done.
   Bullies are more or less regular forum members who might have a huge post count and a following.
2. Trolls usually hit and run. A successful troll needs only a couple of posts in a single thread to turn it into a raging tornado.
   Bullies stay on and intimidate other members by throwing their weight around and using their group of yes-people to lend force to their powerful attacks.
3. Trolls are usually identified for what they are.
   Bullies rarely get identified for what they are, because they are regular members and nobody can suggest that they are ordinary trolls because they have a huge post count.
4. Trolls hardly respond to challenges. Instead they enjoy watching others fight.
   Bullies enjoy fighting and run around bashing everybody who dares oppose them.
5. The potential damage done by trolls is limited to a particular topic of discussion or at most a forum.
   The potential damage done by bullies is forum-wide and not related to topics, but to the personality of the bully and the kind of respect and influence he wields.

[tristan_SMM]

Nicely done. I'm lucky, I haven't had trolls or bullies yet. But I've trained the moderators well and have given them access to the all mighty ban stick (it cannot touch me or any other staff member). If there's someone being a real jerk, I've taught the mods not to hesitate to use the ban stick.

[Brian Turner]

Good points - I think it's the case that whenever you see unwelcome behaviour, you nip it in the bud.

[Shade]

hehe, thats what my forum is all about. I'll gladly take that traffic, send them to digital ****com (had to use the spaces to get around the filter here - no, you didn't it is there for a purpose - Kall). Mean people need a home to!! Most trolls are easily delt with, just don't get in an argument with them, and edit there posts to say something stupid or funny. For instance if there spaming "i hate bush" on a bush forum, change it to "i love bush" eventually they get annoyed. Rally the users behind the person, and it will increase your forums community aspect. And give the idiots an alternative. Most of these guy want a fight. Thats why i made my community.

*staff edit* Circumventing the swear filter in any way is not permitted.

[Michael Merritt]

harisankar, nice post. However, your description of bullies makes it sound like they come on to bide their time until they know they'll be respected enough to make their move without notice. And perhaps that is true is some cases. I, however, think, they can also be born out of a long-time, respectful member, who has simply gotten used to their status of seniority, and maybe don't see what they're doing as wrong.

[CustomTacos]

Excellent analysis of forum troublemakers. Our forum has had some recent run-ins with a forum bully. I can agree with the idea that the "problem" must be dealt with before it gets out of control.

The other observation I wanted to add was that forum admins MUST be careful of the "yes-men" (the followers) of the Internet Bully. Just as you said, the bully will usually attract a group of followers who look up to his behavior and when the original bully is gone, it is very possible that one of the followers will step up and atempt to take the place of him/her.

Again, VERY good analysis and an enjoyable read.

[cornnfedd]

i would almost, and i have to be carefull how i compare this, say that alot of bullies have a 'gang' mentality where no matter how wrong a forum member might be he will have supporters as they are part of his gang. They use their indimidation to bully other people especially newbies with such comments as "learn how to use search" or "that topic has already been posted 1000 times" etc to make themselves look good and to get their post count up. I think its good to have debates in your forum and as long as the bullies dont cross the line then its ok.

What i always love is when a bully decided to start his own forum cause the forum now sux and they take their gang members with them. 99/100 times the forum isnt successfull and half the people end up coming back.. ahh makes me laugh.

good article above good read, cheers.

[hari]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Merritt harisankar, nice post. However, your description of bullies makes it sound like they come on to bide their time until they know they'll be respected enough to make their move without notice. And perhaps that is true is some cases. I, however, think, they can also be born out of a long-time, respectful member, who has simply gotten used to their status of seniority, and maybe don't see what they're doing as wrong.

Agreed. In fact, that's partly what I meant as well. Sorry if the article didn't convey that in the right terms.

[xxbicceyxx]

bullies tend to be more well behaved in front of moderators and admins, and are great at singling out they're victims,

trolls, tend not to care who they are attacking,

[LeadCrow]

Good post

btw, those bullies can also turn out to be oppresive admins/tyrants (undermining the very communities they were supposed to at least NOT undermine, with noone permitted to voice any forms of contestation).

[Blind Bandit]

Internet bullies can easily destroy a forum if the staff refuses to step up and deal with these kind of problems.

Its not easy but I would say if you want a forum to survive , be friendly and happy you must be willing to deal with this.

I think the best suggestion I can give is keep an out for cliquish behavior and don't support or tolerate unwelcoming or unkind behavior.

Sadly I've seen admins ignore, let it slide or simply not see it. This in my opinion can kills a forum like no other.

Its not like a troll its more subtle and if a forum has this problem you can be sucked into before you know and then its too late.

My suggestion again is too look for cliqueish or elitist behavior and be on the look out for trouble.


I think the biggest issue that can motivate this problem to grow is a staff who won't confront a bully when they are misbehaving because the're an older member, have given a lot time or done a great deal for the site.

It comes back the fact the staff must deal with these problems quickly and early if possible.

[Adamantium]

Great post. I hate the bullies and have had experience with them. I hate them more than trolls because at least trolls are out in the open. Bullies are often sneaky, using PMs and emails to create cliques and undermine things to get their way. They even sometimes use their popularity and post count as a defense or threat. I can't stand bullies because they are a more difficult cancer to get rid of and are far more dangerous. People hate trolls but understand they will be removed. People leave sites over bullies, especially popular ones, because they are so entrenched. My decision long ago was to ban the bully for a set time regardless of how popular they were. The result was that people appreciated that over time, and the bullies usually relaxed. However, you do risk losing people over that, including big posters. I've had that happen but still would do the same basic thing because nothing is worse than disliking your own site or ruining your long-term goals over popular bullies.

[Blind Bandit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamantium Great post. I hate the bullies and have had experience with them. I hate them more than trolls because at least trolls are out in the open. Bullies are often sneaky, using PMs and emails to create cliques and undermine things to get their way. They even sometimes use their popularity and post count as a defense or threat. I can't stand bullies because they are a more difficult cancer to get rid of and are far more dangerous. People hate trolls but understand they will be removed. People leave sites over bullies, especially popular ones, because they are so entrenched. My decision long ago was to ban the bully for a set time regardless of how popular they were. The result was that people appreciated that over time, and the bullies usually relaxed. However, you do risk losing people over that, including big posters. I've had that happen but still would do the same basic thing because nothing is worse than disliking your own site or ruining your long-term goals over popular bullies.

I wish more admin took this stance.

Because as you said people will leave your community if you refuse to enforce your rules or take this issue seriously.

One thing that many don't realize is like trolls you may not be able to reason with a bully. They may think they are right and their group of yes men will make you into the lowest form of scum possible. They will try and scare you or leverage their popularity to make you act.

Once an admin gives into this its extremely hard to rid this problem from you forum.

You can but you must be willing to ban people and get into the middle of these problems.

If you don't you can kiss your forum good bye.

Oh it might still be popular but it won't be your forum if you give into it.

[Adamantium]

I totally agree, Shaun. Once you show that you will give in or condone cliques and allow someone besides you to set the tone of your site, you have just stepped into trouble land. Flashback a year or two ago and my main forum site had 1000+ posts a day. A core group generating most of these posts were basically from another site that closed and I enjoyed the activity. However, it soon became clear that were way too into personal attacks, posting things against the rules (like nudity), and other assorted behaviors I did not want dominating the site. To make a long story short, over the course of a month, maybe month and a half, I deleted 50-100 members from the database that refused to follow the rules. It was a hard decision, because, as expected, I saw my posting activity go down to 400 posts a day, from over 1000. Looking back, I have no doubt I did the right thing, and only regret not doing it over the course of a week, instead of 6 weeks. I would have saved myself a lot of headaches and stress.

It's pretty simple in the end. Either you let everyone know you will be there to defend what you set out as their entitlement to the kind of atmosphere you promise or laid out ... or ... you send the signal that posting activity and the risk of losing popular people will guide you. Either way you lose people. Either way you will have aggravation. The question is will you lose people and get aggravated on your terms, or the terms of others?

That doesn't mean you don't have to improve and adjust. I've made decisions and had policies that I wish I didn't. But one of the consistent things I am glad I stuck with was treating everyone the same, no matter how friendly they are to me, no matter how many sweet PMs they send, no matter how popular they are, and no matter how much of a crybaby they are. In fact, one time, I even posted and some of "you" people need to get a life and stop caring so much about who posts what like a damn soap opera. I reminded them that the site was not for that purpose and if they want to go enjoy juvenile drama queen bs the log out button is right there for them. Understand, this was after it was known that people were getting banned here and there, temporarily, and after they would see my warnings within threads. In other words, I wasn't some admin nazi nut, I was simply reinforcing the purpose and focus of the site and how I am not here to babysit emotional retards. Maybe my New York style came out, I don't know, but if you mess with my goals and site, you are not the friend you pretend to be in all your sweet PMs. I don't care how popular you are. I'll get someone who posts just like you but without the baggage. And if I don't, keep in mind I enjoy a life off the internet, so threats only go so far with me.

[Docpixel]

Adamantium, I agree with your every word. Too long to quote, but RIGHT ON! And well said.

[Secure]

This is a very interesting article. However, regardless of if someone is a troll or bully, they are not welcomed

[SeptemberGray]

I was the victim of a forum bully today. Because I very politely disagreed with him on a topic, he spent hours attacking everything from my professionalism as a writer to my name to my sexual orientation. Although I never resorted to any such tactics I was baited until I gave in and began attacking his lack of professionalism. Now we both look like idiots as some other forum members have commented. On the plus side, I wrote an article on the subject of how easy it is to get sucked into confrontation by a bully. When I tweeted the article it got a great response, so I guess I am not the only one who this has happened to. You want to be mature, but you're human. Sometimes you cant help but get angry when you are being attacked out of nowhere. I can't believe I am actually depressed by the whole experience. Worse, the guy is threatening to post ugly comments on my articles, which could serious damage my reputation more than he already has. This is a serious issue.

[Namorat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeptemberGray I was the victim of a forum bully today. Because I very politely disagreed with him on a topic, he spent hours attacking everything from my professionalism as a writer to my name to my sexual orientation. Although I never resorted to any such tactics I was baited until I gave in and began attacking his lack of professionalism. Now we both look like idiots as some other forum members have commented. On the plus side, I wrote an article on the subject of how easy it is to get sucked into confrontation by a bully. When I tweeted the article it got a great response, so I guess I am not the only one who this has happened to. You want to be mature, but you're human. Sometimes you cant help but get angry when you are being attacked out of nowhere. I can't believe I am actually depressed by the whole experience. Worse, the guy is threatening to post ugly comments on my articles, which could serious damage my reputation more than he already has. This is a serious issue.

Welcome to TAZ. We would be very interested to read your article.
Say, do you have any idea how this fight started?

By the way, you may be interested in this:
How do you guys do about spam and negative comments?

[computerology]

While I dont usually bother doing anything anymore with bullies and I just nuke trolls, I have had fun with the bullies before.

I edit the MySQL database and drop the reported view count to 2 and reply count to zero. I have actually before built a bot to do that sort of thing it was really funny.

They came in and were all angry thinking that all the replies were deleted, then clicked on the post and it was all there. They posted again, and the bot automatically switched the reply count back down to zero. It made it look like nobody even cared, they were getting really annoyed at that one because people dont often look at a zero view zero reply post that isnt brand new.

Nowadays, i just delete or lock the thread and if they kick up a storm about it, I give a warn, then a ban. I dont really care about giving a high post count user the boot. I usually find when I finally get around to it, a bunch of new members start popping onto the site once they are gone and silent because the overall vibe of the forum improves.

[cpvr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blind Bandit Internet bullies can easily destroy a forum if the staff refuses to step up and deal with these kind of problems. Its not easy but I would say if you want a forum to survive , be friendly and happy you must be willing to deal with this. I think the best suggestion I can give is keep an out for cliquish behavior and don't support or tolerate unwelcoming or unkind behavior. Sadly I've seen admins ignore, let it slide or simply not see it. This in my opinion can kills a forum like no other. Its not like a troll its more subtle and if a forum has this problem you can be sucked into before you know and then its too late. My suggestion again is too look for cliqueish or elitist behavior and be on the look out for trouble. I think the biggest issue that can motivate this problem to grow is a staff who won't confront a bully when they are misbehaving because the're an older member, have given a lot time or done a great deal for the site. It comes back the fact the staff must deal with these problems quickly and early if possible.

Is it safe to say if you're not fighting back, then the trolls & bullies will takeover?
The fact remains you can't allow them to control your community - you have to build around them, also; banning them and kicking them off the community as soon as they come.